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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
:grin:

Yes another battery thread..

So this morning I decided to check on the battery on my venga..had the car now 18 days and the company I bought it off Renault Liverpool fitted a new one because the old one was past its sell by and gone to battery heaven..:angel2: up the bonnet and straight away I could see it was a varta battery so took down the number and checked it out..well its the wrong type for the car and not for isg equipped cars..wrong Voltage and CCA and just an ordinary battery..:sad:

https://www.yuasa.co.uk/ybx1027.html

Would be fine for my youngest boys ix20 but not for mine and it doesn't even need a smart charger to recharge it..got out my multi meter and its reading 12.8 v so at the moment its holding its own with isg switched off..reading through the handbook it states that when we recharge our batteries we dont need to let the car stand for 4 hours after the charging is done if isg is not in use..I do very little night time driving now and at the moment the weather doesn't justify the use of the heater or demisters..so wondering how long it will last before its needing a charge..now wondering if I should just use it and not replace it at the moment and just keep an eye on the situation..can I use a memory saver for ecu and radio setting if I need to change the battery ?

Comments appreciated..:smile:
 

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your link points to a Yuasa battery but you have a Varta?


?Wrong voltage? What voltage is it and what voltage do you think it should be?


The KIA ISG system will normally stop charging the battery from the alternator at 80% charge and will only charge it past that point when the engine is on overrun (this represents free energy and it is this energy which is used for the ISG restart). The ISG will stop working if it thinks there is insufficient charge in the battery and those with the system think it is a PITA anyway so my advice is not to worry about it.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
your link points to a Yuasa battery but you have a Varta?


?Wrong voltage? What voltage is it and what voltage do you think it should be?


The KIA ISG system will normally stop charging the battery from the alternator at 80% charge and will only charge it past that point when the engine is on overrun (this represents free energy and it is this energy which is used for the ISG restart). The ISG will stop working if it thinks there is insufficient charge in the battery and those with the system think it is a PITA anyway so my advice is not to worry about it.
Yes another typo..its a yuasa one on my car not a varta one..I have isg turned off :wink: think I read in the hand book that it should be 60ah and have a CCA of 550..I have ordered a battery charger this morning [ctec]which is arriving tomorrow [just had the email ] so I am wondering if I can recharge the one on my car now with the charger rather than buying a new battery straight away..and wondering how long it would last..also reading many conflicting posts on here regarding charging the battery in situ and if it can be left connected to the car to save losing any settings..this is why I purposely asked if I could use a memory saver to save the settings and if it would work on the venga..:shrug: to be honest this is the first car I have owned with isg and it's worrying me a bit..really dont need the hassle of going out one morning and the car will be dead..:eek: also reading on here about settings that have to be reinstalled after a battery change..:surprise:

Thanks for your reply Turnup..:thumbsup:
 

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If you dont want a surprise one morning i would replace it with the correct battery, could you not go back to where you bought it ? and get them to replace it. if you were lucky you might get a year out of it, i would think it depends on how much the stop start works and type of driving ie long or short journeys, short being the worst. the correct battery is an efb or agm type which is designed to cope with the extra loads.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
If you dont want a surprise one morning i would replace it with the correct battery, could you not go back to where you bought it ? and get them to replace it. if you were lucky you might get a year out of it, i would think it depends on how much the stop start works and type of driving ie long or short journeys, short being the worst. the correct battery is an efb or agm type which is designed to cope with the extra loads.
Car was bought from Renault Liverpool so taking it back is not an option..I guess they thought fit the cheapest possible for the sale and TBH I wouldn't have know the difference but now reading up on it I do..I have Stop start switched off..mostly short trips..


https://www.yuasa.co.uk/batteries/automotive/ybx7000-efb-batteries/ybx7027.html


Can find these far cheaper on ebay than local outlets..

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yuasa-EFB-Start-Stop-Plus-Battery-60Ah-560CCA-YBX7027-3-Year-Warranty/253814305403?epid=249102076&hash=item3b1882f27b:g:XgQAAOSwKtBbcp8K
 

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1) Yes of course you can charge the battery in situ - that's exactly what the alternator does, just do not get a boost charger as this really should not be done in situ (high risk of frying the electronica)/ I am not at all clear on why you feel the need to charge it at all? It's only really necessary if you do low mileage and short journeys.


2) ISG is harder on batteries because of the frequent re-starts in urban driving - but if you have it turned off this will not be an issue.


3) The differences in Ah and CCA are trivial.


Turn off ISG and you can run that battery just fine.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
1) Yes of course you can charge the battery in situ - that's exactly what the alternator does, just do not get a boost charger as this really should not be done in situ (high risk of frying the electronica)/ I am not at all clear on why you feel the need to charge it at all? It's only really necessary if you do low mileage and short journeys.


2) ISG is harder on batteries because of the frequent re-starts in urban driving - but if you have it turned off this will not be an issue.


3) The differences in Ah and CCA are trivial.


Turn off ISG and you can run that battery just fine.
Appreciate this Turnup..:smile: I do lots of short trips.. now one final question that I have already posted about and that is the use of a memory saver..how do you guys change a battery on a vega with ISG..is it a case of disconnect the old battery and replace with a new one..what happens to ecu and other settings..read somewhere on here that you dont need to let the car stand for 4 hours if ISG isn't used but what about other settings and will the use of a memory saver do just that..save all settings on a car with ISG..

Once again thanks for your posts..:yeah:
 

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The Kia cars with ISG normally have an AGM battery (Advanced Glassfibre Mat)

You will find many threads in the forum about this type of battery because some very qualified guys claim it is being used in a way not intended by the inventor.


The Venga (and othe models have a compplicated battery control system designed both to be ultra efficient and to ensure the charge level is sufficient to restart the engine after an ISG stop, hence the hundred parameters that must be met before ISG will work. Then the system normally only replaces what is currently being used, it does not charge to a higher level (for efficiency) Most if not all charging is done on the overrun.

I had huge problems with it on two cars and had a new battery, there was apparently a batch of duff Varta batteries. Varta was the oem brand in mine and it was easy to find the proper replacement. On my Venga I threatened to buy a replacement and charge the dealer, he soon found he was able to replace it under warranty.

The 4 hour wait is new to me but ties up with the long drive required for the hyper sensitive charging controller to work out levels of voltage vs charge and load etc.



i would be interested to know if the normal battery works just as well as the AGM one, as we always suspected it would be better.


BTW if you boost, only connect to the positive battery post, but take the negative to some other earth point ie the front elbow on the alternator casing. The battery control sensor can be knackered if you go direct on both posts with a booster or jump start. The book says you cannot jump start anyway, but the RAC man showed me different. Important: When you disconnect you must have the engine runnng and some load on, rear screen heater, headlights, blower etc This is to prevent a reverse voltage spike as you collapse the alternator field.



Memory settings: You will loose the clock, radio and nav settings though the radio may remember the station settings as it has a capacitor to hold up the voltage for a while, the ecu will sort itself out. The ISG rarely worked on mine whatever I did. Many owners turn it off claiming excess wear on the starter/flywheel ring. I am now much happier in a Venga without ISG.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
The Kia cars with ISG normally have an AGM battery (Advanced Glassfibre Mat)

You will find many threads in the forum about this type of battery because some very qualified guys claim it is being used in a way not intended by the inventor.


The Venga (and other models have a complicated battery control system designed both to be ultra efficient and to ensure the charge level is sufficient to restart the engine after an ISG stop, hence the hundred parameters that must be met before ISG will work. Then the system normally only replaces what is currently being used, it does not charge to a higher level (for efficiency) Most if not all charging is done on the overrun.

I had huge problems with it on two cars and had a new battery, there was apparently a batch of duff Varta batteries. Varta was the oem brand in mine and it was easy to find the proper replacement. On my Venga I threatened to buy a replacement and charge the dealer, he soon found he was able to replace it under warranty.

The 4 hour wait is new to me but ties up with the long drive required for the hyper sensitive charging controller to work out levels of voltage vs charge and load etc.



i would be interested to know if the normal battery works just as well as the AGM one, as we always suspected it would be better.


BTW if you boost, only connect to the positive battery post, but take the negative to some other earth point ie the front elbow on the alternator casing. The battery control sensor can be knackered if you go direct on both posts with a booster or jump start. The book says you cannot jump start anyway, but the RAC man showed me different. Important: When you disconnect you must have the engine running and some load on, rear screen heater, headlights, blower etc This is to prevent a reverse voltage spike as you collapse the alternator field.



Memory settings: You will loose the clock, radio and nav settings though the radio may remember the station settings as it has a capacitor to hold up the voltage for a while, the ecu will sort itself out. The ISG rarely worked on mine whatever I did. Many owners turn it off claiming excess wear on the starter/flywheel ring. I am now much happier in a Venga without ISG.
Thanks for the reply..

Personally I think an ordinary battery would work just as well after all its just a battery..just look at this one for instance..60ah and 550 CCA which is what the venga should have and it says 30,000 starts to boot and if isg is switched off like mine is the battery doesnt get the continual drain for stopping and starting..so why cant we venga owners use a normal battery :shrug:

https://www.yuasa.co.uk/batteries/automotive/ybx3000-smf-batteries/ybx3075.html


As said what I intend to do is use one of these plugged into the power socket in the cubby hole and by the gear lever to monitor the situation and act and recharge if necessary..

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12V-24V-LED-Digital-Auto-Car-Truck-Cigarette-Lighter-Volt-Voltage-Gauge-Meter/392432420502?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

I do mainly short trips every other day dropping my oldest lad off to work [there and back around 4 miles ] and on the weekend will do a longer trip visiting our daughter which is a 30 mile round trip and if the fancy takes us we may now and again take a long trip to the beach for some air because I spend much of my time now in bed or around the house with spinal damage and mobility problems..the only thing that really concerns me is the actual charging and how to recover the lost memory should I decide to disconnect the battery leads to charge and that is why I have asked if a memory saver can be used on the venga with success..have already read in the handbook that the 4hour wait is not needed if isg is not needed and switched off..actual wording is "If you want to use the ISG function the battery sensor needs to be calibrated for approximately 4 hours with the ign off" so that is telling me that if ISG is not required the 4 hour standing is not required if you dont want to use ISG..
 

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Appreciate this Turnup..:smile: I do lots of short trips.. now one final question that I have already posted about and that is the use of a memory saver..how do you guys change a battery on a vega with ISG..is it a case of disconnect the old battery and replace with a new one..what happens to ecu and other settings..read somewhere on here that you dont need to let the car stand for 4 hours if ISG isn't used but what about other settings and will the use of a memory saver do just that..save all settings on a car with ISG..

Once again thanks for your posts..:yeah:

OK - lots of short trips is likely to leave the battery steadily discharging, so a trickle charger might be necessary to keep it topped up. DO NOT USE A BOOST CHARGER if the battery is still connected to the rest of the car, but a trickle charger will be fine. Not at all sure about conditioning chargers and what they do so can't advise on that. If you have the possibility to trickle charge overnight with the battery in situ this will be fine. If you cannot charge in situ (e.g. parked on public road or insecure driveway) then it will be necessary to remove the battery and a memory saver is then a good idea (but a bit of a faff and you will probably soon get bored with that nause).


Alternatively it might be easier to make a point of a 20 mile drive once a week (maybe twice a week in the depths of winter). As long as the engine is above a fast idle then the alternator will be delivering full charging current and there is no need to thrash it or artificially elevate rpm by using a lower gear.


Perhaps worth investing in a battery condition monitor (you can get them which plug into the so called cigarette lighter socket) and leave it there - you can keep an eye on it and charge or go for a run as you feel it becomes necessary.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Perhaps worth investing in a battery condition monitor (you can get them which plug into the so called cigarette lighter socket) and leave it there - you can keep an eye on it and charge or go for a run as you feel it becomes necessary.

I have one coming and should be with me on Friday..:wink: and I will let you chaps know how it goes with that..all other points in your posts are noted and in particular the 20 mile trip once a week which I used to do on my ix20 without isg just to keep the battery topped up..:smile:
 

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OK so something you need to know about the KIA ISG system. It will "normally" charge the battery only up to 70 - 80% of full charge (various figures have been quoted). It will stop charging at that point to reduce the load on the alternator and thus save fuel. It will charge beyond that point ONLY when the engine is on overrun (i.e. throttle shut, in gear, clutch up) thus topping the battery with essentially free energy. This means that when you are on your battery conditioning run you should try to go for extended periods of throttle shut, especially when approaching a point where you will have to stop anyway (lights, junctions). Lift off early, don't change down through the gears as the car slows and use minimal braking to harvest the max of that free energy. Dip the clutch as you reach about 1000 - 1200 rpm to avoid the stall preventer from kicking in. If conditions ahead change such that you now want to go then simply directly select the appropriate gear and off you go. This is called block changing and is the technique preferred by the IAM and is now also acceptable during a driving test. With some anticipation it is surprising how little use of the brake you actually need and this both charges your battery and saves fuel. Relax - you are not going anywhere particular in a hurry anyway.
 

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In my personal experience cars with stop/start have alternators that charge at a higher rate that older cars and cars without stop/start and "standard" batteries are not designed for these charging systems. They will work for a time but in extreme weather they can have issues and potentially their life will be shortened.

As for having a lower CCA several years ago I was sold a battery with 360 CCA to replace a battery with 420 CCA. The retailer assured me it would be OK since the battery was a higher quality (AC Delco) than the orignal (Hoppekeke - apologise if spelt wrong). Well it worked fine for about 6 months but on the morning of the first frost the thing would barely crank with no attempt to start. Call out RAC who said "wrong battery - take it back" which I did. The retailer was obviously well practiced in these matters and said it was my responsibility to check if the battery was correct and by accepting it I had agreed it was. Since the AC Delco battery was only £20 I simply made a point of promising them I would ensure as many people as possible got to know about their practices and bought another battery, this time with 460 CCA and it lasted the 5 years I had the car with no issues.

As for the AC Delco all was not lost. A mate gave me a tenner for it and used it as a leisure battery in his VW camper van.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Good morning folks..not long got in from taking my oldest lad to his works..thought to myself lets check the voltage this morning on the battery so I shuffled upstairs and got it out..my multimeter lol..holy moly it's 13.1 this morning..was 12.8 the other day when I checked it..:surprise: also noticed when I pulled up at my lads works that ISG had switched back on and the light on the disarm switch was not showing..CLICK!!! now yer off..:devil: had a looksee around the engine bay while I was at the car and had a quick wipe around:grin: and noticed that I could actually see the white clip the headlamp slots into..funny how you see these things AFTER you have taken a headlamp out..didnt notice the thing when taking the headlamp out the other day :eek:fftopic: now to go over the last post made by Back again in relation to Ah and CCA..how beneficial would it be when using an ordinary battery on an ISG equipped car if the owner bought one with a higher Ah rating like this one

https://www.yuasa.co.uk/batteries/automotive/ybx3000-smf-batteries/ybx3100.html

Would the increase in CCA have a detrimental effect on the car as well..:shrug: and surmising of course that it would even fit the battery tray and be the correct height etc ..also given the price of this one you may as well buy a stop start battery in the first place..

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yuasa-EFB-Start-Stop-Plus-Battery-60Ah-560CCA-YBX7027-3-Year-Warranty/253814305403?epid=249102076&hash=item3b1882f27b:g:XgQAAOSwKtBbcp8K

That is ebay prices and not factor/garage prices mind you and of course it has to be fitted and would incur a charge if not D.I.Y..:popcorn:
 

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Not relating to your car but when I changed my battery after 11 years in order to keep the memory etc. I used a battery charger connected to the + and - leads then disconnected the battery but make sure you do NOT short the leads against the body/engine put insulating mats for them to rest on. Then install new battery connect up switch battery charger off after tightening up the battery leads. Not loss of memory etc.
I am sure you not be happy until you have the correct battery and it will gnaw at you so go and get it off ebay.
Thank goodness I have out-of-date cars.
 

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Not relating to your car but when I changed my battery after 11 years in order to keep the memory etc. I used a battery charge.

I've always used a well trusted local electrical (car) specialist. Beats any price, and uses a dongle plugged into the cigar lighter keeping all settings. Fits the battery free of charge.
 

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<snip>

https://www.yuasa.co.uk/batteries/automotive/ybx3000-smf-batteries/ybx3100.html

Would the increase in CCA have a detrimental effect on the car as well..:shrug: and surmising of course that it would even fit the battery tray and be the correct height etc ..also given the price of this one you may as well buy a stop start battery in the first place..


Fitting a battery with higher rated Ah and/or higher rated CCA will cause no harm. The up spec battery will have a slightly easier life as it is working at less than it's design loading. It might slightly confuse the smart charging and ISG but I doubt it because it must (over time at least) work by looking at the rest voltage of the battery to determine it's charge state and this will be no different as all lead acid batteries have the same voltage/charge relationship, it's just the time axis which is different.
 

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the smart charge system should "learn" the new batterys qualities and make adjustments as required, some makes of car ie vw, audi, nissan, merc, have to be told they have a new battery (via the eobd plug). so they can learn.
 
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