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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So the Gov got it right & saved tax payers some cash. So as many said. Manufactures are keeping prices high on the basis of the grant.


 

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So the Gov got it right & saved tax payers some cash. So as many said. Manufactures are keeping prices high on the basis of the grant.
Prior to the reduction of the grant buyers could get 拢3000 of a Niro 3 64 kWh which cost 拢36850, cost to the buyer 拢33850.

Post grant you could only get a Niro 2 for under 拢35000, the Niro 2 was only 39kWh and without looking at specs would not have been anywhere near as well kitted out as the 3 or go as far or as fast. Fine if you used one in the urban environment.

Now you can get a Niro 2 64kWh for the 拢35000 limit with a 拢2500 grant, cost to buyer 拢32500.

So for 拢1350 less you get a car with a lower spec.

The government saves money, Kia will still sell cars but the buyer who wants the nice bits looses out. If you want a Niro with all the nice stuff like leather electric seats, heated seats you still need to buy the 3 (if I was buying a car in the 拢35k region I would want these items) and get no grant.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
You pays your money and makes your choice.

Funny how manufactures have found a way to bring a product to the market in such a short time frame... Thats has to be some sort of record.
 
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Funny how manufactures have found a way to bring a product to the market in such a short time frame... Thats has to be some sort of record.
Its not a new product is it. It uses the battery and motor from a 3 and the trim from a 2. Needs no development, just press a few different spec buttons before the shell travels down the line. Its no different to what other manufacturers do when they have an options list that allows customers to decide the spec.

The cynical side of me wonders how Kia arrived at a list price exactly on the grant price.

What happens when Kia list prices rise next time and it forces the price over the threshold. Will they bring out a 1 spec and keep it at 拢35,000.
 

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So the Gov got it right & saved tax payers some cash. So as many said. Manufactures are keeping prices high on the basis of the grant.


So what happens to the price of current E-Niro 3 until the E-Niro 2 long range arrives. Will Kia do something like they've done for the Niro phev's a 拢2,500 finance deposit. contribution. (Kia's own PiCG)
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I would expect the "3" to stay as it is for now. As they have introduced the "2" they have no incentive to drop/subsidize the price on the higher spec models.
 

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I would expect the "3" to stay as it is for now. As they have introduced the "2" they have no incentive to drop/subsidize the price on the higher spec models.
Surely they loss sales between now and July where people are not prepared to loss out on 拢3000 or 拢2500 saving. Also some people will think they've been cheated out of a high spec car.
It's funny you'd also think Kia know the grant incentive was going to be taken away. Amazing how quick they've turned it around and the new 2 is just under the grant.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I don't think anyone got wind it was being reduced if you believe the press reports. Hence my "How quick the manufactures" reacted and brought out models that are just under the limit.
Would be interesting to see what delivery is on a new "2" model.
 

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I was expecting to be buying a Soul EV soon after we came out of lockdown, when we could move from "window-shopping" to real shopping and test driving, but the change of threshold to 拢35k has changed the picture greatly. I have over-fed on Youtube videos and text reviews! I loved the spec and, for me, the Soul won over Niro, it was nearly a done deal. Now the grant change and Kia not adjusting prices has cobbled my plans.
I can see how Kia would be reluctant to reduce the First Edition price from over 拢37k to 拢35k.... but their competitors are doing it. For some makes and models it was a more modest few hundred pounds, for others the drop has been thousands. Models that I could previously eliminate because they were similarly priced but had poorer range and specifications are suddenly back in contention. They weren't my first choice by specifications, but the hard reality of the cost differences is impossible to ignore. Nissan have reduced all the Leaf prices to keep the progressive prices in the correct order, but the biggest cuts were on the top models, to bring them under the 拢35k ceiling (cuts of up to 拢5,265). For the first time I've been tinkering with the Nissan, VW and Skoda websites. Nissan have just done the simple thing of cutting the trim-package prices. Predictably VW and Skoda have produced base-specifications which come under the cap for the grant, then you can add "options" which can still make an on-the-road price over 拢35k, but you still qualify for the PiCG. Cunning!

It makes me wonder what Kia will do. Right now they seem to be saying that they can deliver a Soul in 10 days from taking an order... which suggests that they've got some (or plenty) of stock in the UK after arriving in the port at Immingham. Presumably there are further ships at sea which left South Korea before the change or because the production lines were already committed to right-hand UK-spec First Editions. Are there that many buyers who will still pay the asking price... when clear blue water has opened between the original price and the price that nearly all other cars in that bracket are settling at - 拢32,500 (拢35k - 拢2.5k PiCG).

If they don't just drop their price why not declare the expected new models, with two battery sizes and 2,3,4 trims and one of the "option" packages is to pay extra for the "Like First Edition" package.
You can order now for the new specifications (and wait) or you can have the "Like First Edition" from existing UK stock (while stocks last).They don't have to stomach the full cut to make the whole package price under 拢35k, they could get away with having a future '3' with big battery at 拢34,995 (price with PiCG 拢32,455) and charge 拢2000 for the "like First Edition" upgrade to bring the price back to what people expected before the grant was changed, about 拢34,500 - But a fully specified Soul which beats most of the opposition.
When they've exhausted the existing stock the new 2, 3, 4 trims can start arriving and have new whatever new options we might expect from looking at other markets e.g. 11kW AC, new colours, sun roof etc.

I sure hope they need to move stock as much as I want not to have to make a "sensible" choice... for about 5000 reasons!
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
1st edition, is always there when Kia release a new car (EV Soul in this case) and after a year when they revamp. It reverts back to 2,3,4 range.

Kia are clear and simple with their cars. There is no "Add ons" you simply choose your level of spec and that is it. Makes for simple customer choice & easy production lines, as the cars are all the same.

Do agree that a price reduction would help, especially as the new EV6 has been released. Which despite it's over the grant price is going to hold back a number of EV purchases till people can see it in the flesh and then decide if it is what they want.

So you have a couple of choices, hold off for now and see how things go price wise, or if you really want. Jump in and enjoy the new EV, as no way will the grant go back up. It will only get lower.

Don't shoot yourself in the foot over the lack of grant and end up with something that you regret buying.
 

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Don't shoot yourself in the foot over the lack of grant and end up with something that you regret buying.
Sage advice. I hear it - partner does not ;) The price was already stretching our different attitudes!
Absolutely agree about the clear trim levels. My last car was a Mini and besides the typical complex selection of individual add-ons there was a "Chilli Pack" bundle which kept most of it simple. What I'm suggesting is that Kia could restructure their cars as two base models (the '2'), one with small battery the other with large battery, both falling under 拢35k.

1) low-range '2'
2) long-range '2'
3) Customer can add a '3' spec pack to the long range '2'
4) Customer can add a '4' spec pack to the long range '2'
Might even be worth allowing similar upgrades to the low-range variant.

This seems to work for the traditional European market competitors (VW, Skoda and others). They get a viable, eligible model to qualify and the options don't violate the 拢35k limit. They still get to pocket more than 拢35k and I don't pay all of it. Kia have been delivering the 3 trim levels of Soul into other markets already. It can't be long until they are ready to announce them here. In Norway they are called "Classic", "Active" and "Exclusive", available for both battery sizes I think. Things like sunroof, rear heated seats and HUD are only in the "exclusive". It's anybody's guess whether Kia will position the '3' Soul above or below the 拢35k limit. Clearly they've chosen to keep both '3' and '4' e-Niros on the wrong side... so that doesn't bode well.

I suspect there's more complexity to what must form part of the qualifying model, but VW & Skoda have done it and many others have just come up with the simple solution of slashing the end price.

Right now it is impossible to justify paying 拢3000 more than I (struggled) to justify, especially when "serviceable" specifications of other cars are now much cheaper (because it's not just the 拢2,500 grant it's the slashed manufacturer's original price). I would feel "had" if I bought from a dealer at >拢37,500 only to read of a price drop to 拢32,500 a few weeks later. Maybe the 2021 '3' will appear and be "adequate" at a sub 拢35k price. I will still feel sore that a good quality car with excellent range and a terrific spec of goodies was once available for 拢34,500 (goodies that wouldn't have been justifiable unless they were in an indivisible package).
Maybe I'll end up buying a second hand Soul in 6 months when no good news has materialised. Reducing the cap on the PiCG will help hold up the second-hand prices too.

BTW I got my 3 grades of Soul from this Youtube video at 17:20 Norwegian Soul review
Big Nissan price drops
 

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I suggest you have a google for videos of the car plants supplying Europe.

There's no real margin for producing anything other than standard spec levels. It makes no sense & it won't happen - everything else is marketing.

My personal opinion (FWIW) is that if you can afford to spend 拢35k on a car then you shouldn't be getting subsidies.
 

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My personal opinion (FWIW) is that if you can afford to spend 拢35k on a car then you shouldn't be getting subsidies.
I think your right to a point and I think government should continue to reduced the grant over time but they should publish a plan for the next 2-5 years so people know where they stand. They did something similar with solar panels, this allowed people to to make their own decision on when they would jump in or not (ie as of the 1st April it will reduce to .....)

If the government want people / family's to adopt electric cars, they need to help/incentivise until the prices drop. There is no point in the government pushing for people to go green on one hand and then taking incentivise away with the other, I just think the 拢50k - 拢35K was to big a jump. There are not very many family sized EV's around that have a good range, descent size boot and under the new 拢35k limit, we all can't make a Renault Zoe meet our family requirements. I'm sure there will be in time but you probably talking 2/3 years away from this.

But I do also think car companies can happy this this as well. They need to work together. Now that would be a miracle.
 

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I don't particularly have a problem with what the government has done. The rapid response by most manufacturers dropping their prices just shows how public money was allowing car manufacturers to load their prices.

I agree with Vestas's point that people affording 拢35k may not particularly need a public money hand-out.
Reducing the grant has clearly had a desirable effect on prices, rather predictably!

My disappointment is more with Kia's lack of response (compared to other manufacturers).
If Kia did what others have done my chosen car would have dropped in price from 拢34,500 to 拢32,500 instead of being well over 拢37k
The Kia/Hyundai family's Kona 64kWh in Premium trim for example now 拢32,495 EVs now under 拢35k

There's no real margin for producing anything other than standard spec levels. It makes no sense & it won't happen - everything else is marketing.
So what are the '2', '3' and '4+' e-Niros which come in different colours? (I understand the marketing and initial production advantages of "First Editions")

We can expect Souls to appear at some time, almost certainly sooner, in different grades. Kia could release the specifications and open orders for them, with delivery in July or whenever and say "we still have limited stock of something we are calling 'long-range 2 with original First Edition specification'. The base specification would be a qualifying for grant price. The UK Kia pricing "option" (nothing to do with manufacturing in Korea) would enable customers to buy something that could be delivered in two weeks from UK stock.

Back on the point of government not using public money to allow profiteering... the OLEV grant for home chargers:-
I question why they didn't remove the grant for home charger installations. They said that the vehicle purchase grant reduction was to make the money go further and help more at the affordable end... well in that case why help people disproportionately who have driveways/off-street parking who can already charge at home for 5p. A large number of people only have on-street parking, or live in flats or properties which are not theirs to modify. There is no means-test on the OLEV grant for chargers. I know it is a smaller amount, but I strongly suspect it helps installers and EVSE manufacturers inflate their prices more than if it were removed. Anyone from suburban house to celebrity mansion owner gets the grant. Perhaps council tax band should be used to cap who gets public money to install a charger?
BTW I know that the installation grant is changing next year, but why not next month?
 

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My disappointment is more with Kia's lack of response (compared to other manufacturers).
If Kia did what others have done my chosen car would have dropped in price from 拢34,500 to 拢32,500 instead of being well over 拢37k
The Kia/Hyundai family's Kona 64kWh in Premium trim for example now 拢32,495 EVs now under 拢35k
Wow I hadn't spotted that. So if they can do this for the Kona why not the Niro & Soul ?

So was the Kona 64kwh Premium the same as a Niro 3 ? I'm guessing it's to do with the Niro selling so well that they are reluctant to drop the price.
Perhaps when the figures drop over the next quarter they will the realise and drop the price.
 

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So was the Kona 64kwh Premium the same as a Niro 3 ?
I don't really know. I wasn't following Kona specs closely because I thought the interior finish looked cheap and plasticy compared to Kia's materials.
I was searching for latest postings mentioning the PiCG change and found the following article, which contains quite a few details in a quick and easy readable way (unlike Hyundai's overly complex web-page!) Hyundai announces New KONA Electric prices and specifications - London Connected

Hyundai's web-page needs a lot of scrolling to get past all the pictures, but there's a good table of prices and the 'Premium' contains nearly everything I would have wanted - it's not a "scrimpy" specification like the typical Kia '2', and I think it probably exceeds the '3' in many respects, see the specification section which expands and you can see one of those handy grids of blobs showing what's included in which grade. I could live without the electric driver seat for the price and it's a shame that HDA Highway Drive Assist (cruise matching the car in front) is only in Ultimate
Discover the New Hyundai Kona Electric - Electric SUV | Hyundai UK

I'm guessing it's to do with the Niro selling so well that they are reluctant to drop the price.
Perhaps when the figures drop over the next quarter they will the realise and drop the price.
I've read somewhere that Kia have done some deal to generously discount e-Niros for minicab drivers (maybe it was one company), perhaps they are breaking the Prius popularity. Also, for people who are self-employed with their own companies, it is easy to claim a whole lot of cost back, so the price difference isn't as important as for those of us who are employed PAYE and have to pay full price without tax dodges. That's why I can understand Kia resting on their laurels with fast-selling e-Niros, but really wonder what's happening to Soul sales figures.

[UPDATE This isn't what I'd seen about a taxi deal, but might be evidence https://www.cabdirect.com/cab-direct-news/kia-e-niro-quiet-confident/ ]
 

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Wow I hadn't spotted that.
Scroll to the table of discounts Nissan made to their 62kWh Leafs!
Nissan cuts cost of Leaf to qualify for plug-in grant

Don't really want one, but just look at that price cut. There's another reason why Kia might be able to afford to cut, exchange rates...
Variable, but recently UKP has being doing better than late last year. Of course you can cheat by picking comparison dates. Raw data here
If we were even just 10% up that would be around 拢3,700 more value in S.Korean Won, is it really so hard to drop 拢2,700 from the price? If Souls and e-Niro '3' and '4' are hanging around in UK storage are they going to have room for offloading the ships coming in with new stock? Maybe not a problem. Maybe they quickly paused production for UK and shipping, to watch for order patterns changing. Maybe we need a few Suez canal delayed ships to arrive in Immingham to see some discounts. I noticed that our nearest dealers seem to be selling their existing demo Souls because they have new ones coming - That could be Kia choosing this as a opportune time to shift stagnant stock to dealers to refresh the demo cars.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I think it is time that the grant was dropped altogether. Then it is down to manufacture to price in a realistic way. Rather than up the price by the known grant, and make people think they are getting a good deal.

If the government want to encourage EV take up, then focus on the one thing that is the issue to many people. Fund more charging points.

Agree with @RobinB, as to my mind it is manufactures who now need to pick up the batten to increase EV take up. Not the government, as there are far more important area's that need funding.
 

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...to my mind it is manufactures who now need to pick up the batten to increase EV take up. Not the government, as there are far more important area's that need funding.
Yup. 拢2,500 in proportion to the full cost has become less important. For the 拢2,500 there's some overhead in administering the scheme and claiming the value back. Even if that process has been streamlined there's still the fact of the government and civil service bandwidth expended on maintaining policy and just thinking about the changing strategy, then there's PR around communicating terms, conditions and updates, the legal sides and disputes. Plenty of money for the "overheads"!

On the plus side - there's now a sort of higher-mid-market standard price with brands competing on their features and service and support at that price. Go over that price and you have identified your product as high-end. Is that where Kia wants to be seen to be the player? Perhaps they want to be seen to be in the peer group of Audi, BMW, Jag etc.
 
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