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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Okay so I got a new Kia rio 1.1 air ecodynamics. I have had the car for about a month now. I am enjoying the car and it so so much more enjoyable than my previous 1992 vw polo.
I bought the car on finance. I was sold mainly on the fuel consumption statistics and ecological factor. I was convinced to buy the air model by my dealer mainly because there was a shortage of the smaller 3 door models, but also becuase i was told the air would most likely retain its value.I have never purchased a new car before and I have to say I think maybe I was being naive about the costs of running. I thought it would be amazing and that i would be taking epic trips to scotland and back. A full tank of good old Tesco diesel cost me £54. With this I drove from South bucks to south east London and back twice and also did a whole week of commuting to work which is about 20 miles a day. I find that £20 a week is around the costs of running it. If I was only commuting it would be less but my weekly trip to London adds to the amount.
I suppose my first question is is this good?
As I have never owned a diesel car before, I am biting my nails a bit over the incresed cost over petrol. I am also anxious about the potential increase created by fuel companies. This of course leads me to the good old biofuel question. I am sure that this question has been raised already on here and forgive me if it has. Does anyone think that running the new rio on maybe 50% biofuel would be possible without trashing the engine or other engine parts? I seem to get mixed responses. The manual states that you can use diesel that has 7% biofuel and that corresponds to EU regulations. Anything above this I am told would invalidate the warrenty. However I also am told that because of the costs involved in finding out what kind of fuel is used in diesel engines car companies are unlikely to know unless you own up to it.
I just wanted a rio owners opinion on all this.
Many thanks for reading.
 

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In my opinion I would not run 50% bio as it would do harm to HP pump and possibly injectors as the viscosity would be too heavy for a common rail engine. Yes it would certainly screw your warranty. Give the car time to loosen up and the mpg will improve.
 

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If it would even run. The heavyer viscosity Bio dieselwhich is SVO (Straight vegetable oil) filtered, and some other important stuff, will clog everything from your filters, pipes and injectors to knackering your fuel pump. Bio-diesel at the pump is 80% of the time Rape Methyl Ester (RME) produced from raw rapeseed oil reacted with methanol. It makes it alot lighter in viscosity and highly corrosive of rubber...so pretty much all your seals. Hence why the maximum amount is only 5%You do know that you only get around 60% of the energy per ltr from the equivalent ltr of fossil diesel? You mix it 50:50 and you'll maybe save a few quid a mile...but you'll only get 70% of your current MPG.


The EU as of the end of this year i think will raise that ratio to 10%...
Personaly i thinkthis allows the fuel manufactures to make moremoney on fuel per ltr, you get worse MPG so the govenment make more tax money per ltr, and the farmers cash in to! Thats why its being gradualty introduced and if i stand corrected all new Mercedes are fitted with non rubber based seals so they can run at the higher 10% limit.

The risk also goes deeper in that biodiesel is rapidly biodegradable. You leave it for to long in the tank and it can start to "damp" as i call it Or "loose its spark" This for me would be the biggest turn off as it is bloody hard to make well in a back yard science kind of way...yet i see no demand for it at the petrol pumps, so if a tanker full is sat underground for a month or more..i can see it doing even more harm to an engine.

As above..its new, the tollerance are tight and will take some time to loosen up. You'll see an improvement in time

Oh and some manufactures allow you to fun on 50% kerosene in VERY cold weather...but not in the UK...thank HMRC for that








Edited by: RichieD76
 

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Richie, sorry, the info you give in your post is not correct.
Engakius, I recommend you go to a specialist biofuel forum forcorrect information on this, such as www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk.
However, for your car, I think the scope for savings is very limited. You would have to run your car on biodiesel, which will invalidate your warranty. The trouble is therehave beenso many cowboys making bad biodiesel in the past, Kia do not trust the stuff.

The other problem is that the government are beginning to tax biodiesel the same as normal diesel, so all the big players are dropping out as it's not worth their while doing it anymore. You can make your own, but it is dangerous and messy and you have to have some friends at a local chippy.

Anyway, go to the forum on that website above and have a read.

Edited by: M4trundler
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Many thanks for the advice and replies.
I assumed the fuel consumption was due to the turbo factor. When I use the dials on the dashboard it does sometimes read 99mpg, but as soon as I put the pedal down on the motorway, even in 6th, it shoots down to about 50 or 60mpg.
The comments regarding the tolerance and seeing improvements are encouraging . I hope that is the case as I have heard that all that is done in factories with new cars. What kind of mileage should I expect to see this difference?
I think Bio Fuel is a bit of nightmare subject, which is a shame.





Edited by: Engakuis
 

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<div style="text-align: left;">The advice given by
M4trundler isabsolutelycorrect and the website he recommends should be that start point for anyone considering running adieselcar on Veg of Bio.
<div style="text-align: left;">

<div style="text-align: left;">As he says, Davy is almost wholly incorrect in his post, but what Davy says is very much in-line with common thinking and what many peoplebelieve.
<div style="text-align: left;">

<div style="text-align: left;">I have run VW PD TDI engines for 150k+ miles plus over the years on Bio diesel,primarilyon 100% Bio (B100) either made by myself and by a couple of trusted localsources. I also look after my Sister in Laws Skoda Octavia 1.9TDI that she runs on Straightwaste(filtered)vegetableoil.
<div style="text-align: left;">

<div style="text-align: left;">Most Supermarket fuel is B5 (5%) Bio and has been for some time, in reality the law allows up to 7% bio to be sold at the pumps and this is whatMorrison'shave been selling for some time, and ibelievethis is due toincreaseto up to 10% in the near future. Almost all VW group 1.9TDI PD engines built from '99 to '04 werewarrantedin Germany to run on B100 100% Bio, indeed the manuals for the UK cars state that it is an acceptable fuel provided it conforms to the correct standard. At present Renault warrantytheirDiesel cars to run on up to 30% mixed Bio B30 even in the UK.
<div style="text-align: left;">

<div style="text-align: left;">Theprimaryissue with running Bio is the fuel itself, anyone can set up with a few drums, build themselves a bomb and start making Bio, The result of this is that the quality is vary varied. I would have NO WORRIES at all running any car on the fuel i make myself in my GL type processor because i know what the quality is, the problem i have is getting enough waste oil to make it worth my while. You only get about 80% Bio by volume from waste oil, so you need a fair bit if you want to make enough to cover say 10k miles a year.
<div style="text-align: left;">

<div style="text-align: left;">Common rail diesel engines areinherentlyless robust than "old" styledieselengines andmanufacturershave stopped testing bio in them now, hence warranties getinvalidated. as an example, BMW andVauxhallboth make engines with low rent plastic swirl inlet manifolds that are degraded by bio quicker than normal diesel, look on the auto trader and you will see far more old diesels with starshipmileagesthan never CR engines...there is a reason for this.
<div style="text-align: left;">

<div style="text-align: left;">I am getting out of the bio game and just buying aRiothat should (fingers crossed) do huge economy figures and thus negate all the effort i have to put in at present.
<div style="text-align: left;">

<div style="text-align: left;">Realistically if you have bought a 1.1, basically its the most economical car you can buy, if you "need" to be running it on Bio to be able to afford it, you probably should be getting the bus rather than running a car! :)
<div style="text-align: left;">

<div style="text-align: left;">I am sure over time that people in the veg world will start trying the new kiadieselson Bio, but i would leave it to the experts.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Arrrgh no, not the bus!!!
Lol.
To get a bus 5 miles up the local hill costs £3.50. I don't know if it is actually cheaper. I was paying 130 per month on my travel car and then another £50 on my out of London commute. That was with a discount. So in a fuel sense I do save money as it costs me now about £80 a month.
It's just buying the damn thing that is expensive! LOL
But I was honestly sold on the Eco factor. I have been wanting an eco car for a long time. People cannot believe it when they see it because it looks like a ford or something.
 

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I love the look of the Rio, Iactuallyhave bought (yet to be delivered) a graphite 3 5dr 1.4CRDi exactly the same as the motor show cars, I drove a 1.1, but itdidn'thave the guts for all the M-way work i do, also you cant get cruise on the 1.1.

I can get nearly 60MPG in the warmer months out of my current Audi A4 1.9TDI 130 that has been re-mapped to 170 BHP, so i have no doubt that i should be able to better that figure in the Rio when it arrives.

I would think 70MPG should beachievablefrom a 1.1drivengently on a run, close to 60 around town if not better, a friend at work runs a new fiesta 1,6 TDCI Eco and he gets well over 60 ingeneralday to day use and itdosentclaim to be as economical as the Rio.
 

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Big boz why would the VW dealers have a sign up saying dont use Bio diesel in their engines ? I am not disagreeing with you that you have been running the VW PD with no problems but why would the dealer say dont run it on Bio, must be some problems they have come across with engines that have used it.
 

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Hi Davy, the post '04 non PD's (so the common Rail engines) were not "tested" by VW, ie theydidn'tinvest any money to check thefuelsystems long term effects from Bio, which they did with the PD's.

In actual fact now a days its not the car manufacturers, but thefuelsystem makers who do the testing and warranty on this element of the power train. So Bosch for example, although from a customer perspective its the car maker that sorts out anywarrantyclaims and then claims the costs back fromthefuelsystems maker.

There are plenty of people running these engines on Bio though manyhavingcoveredhuge miles on B100 with no problems. That is not to say that all common rail engines are equal, if you spend some time reading the vegoilbio forum, it is clear that many Common rail enginesDontdo well on Bio...BUT....thisisn'talways down to the fuel. For instance, if you start running a car on Bio where inthepast it has run on Mineral pump DERV, chances are thefueltankand line will have lots of built up crud.

Bio (being more corrosive) will dislodge this build up and send it down the fuel lines, through the high pressure pump etc, and its this that damages the engine. When starting using a car on bio i have always added additional in-line filters, and changed the main filter every few 000's mile to begin with.

I suppose the moral is, do your homework, pick a car that is tried and tested on bio and put in the elbow grease with the filters and chances are you wont have any issues provided you are using good quality fuel.
 

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Davy, just noticed you are running a 140 TDI Leon.

Friend is running his CR 140 New shape 08 plate Skoda superb withthesame unit as yours (although notremapped) on Bio. It runs sweet as a nut, He went 50:50 for the winter as a precaution, buthasn'thad any issues, think he is up to 20K on Bio now, In total its on 130k ish in total.
 

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Very interesting big boz, thanks for that. My 140 is a PD engine its a 2006 Leon, so its ok to run on Bio then as you have certainly had a few PD engines run with it for many thousands of miles. I will stick to esso, BP and shell diesels as its convenient for now.
 

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If its a 140 on an 06 it will be a common rail not a pd. There are a few octavias on an 06 with the pd, but they are the 110bhp engine.

Yours is a 2.0 so should be fine on good quality bio. To he honest there is only one source of bio that isn't me, so unless you cam find a good local source at about a pound a litre, I really wouldn't bother.

I get about 10% worse Eco on bio on average, so you set up costs and reduced economy are going to out weigh your savings unless you do a fair few miles or are planning to make it at home in which case you need a good supply of oil, which Is getting hard to do these days.
 

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Its a PD engine for sure big boz. The injectors are inside of head and worked by camshaft. No CR is present. No HP pump.

Just to add engine code is BKD
Edited by: davy
 

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I was sure it was only the skodas that got the pds up to 06, happy to be proven wrong though!

Lots of knowledge on that other forum though, if u are considering giving it a go, I can't recommend it highly enough. T

I can honestly say that I have never had a directly bio related issue with any pd vw engine though, plenty of gunked up turbo vanes, a4s with failed drop links, etc, but nothing bio induced.
 

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When veggy oil was cheap my mate use to put it in his Toyota Lucidia about 50/50mixwith no problems. Stank a bit and was slightly smokey. But at £1.00 odd a litre now its not really worth it.
 

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If you've got a suitable car you can run on straight veg oil no worries. I quite often use my old people carrier instead of the Rio because of cost. The mpg is not so good with a people carrier, but motorway cruising at 65 mphit will do over 40 mpg, compared to the 51 mpg I usually get from the Rio. But you can get new veg oil for 90p a litre from the shops compared to £1.43 for derv. In the winter I add 10% petrol to the veg oil to lower the viscosity. But you can only use 2,500 litres of home made bio diesel or veg oil per year before the tax man gets on your case. So for me I still use the Rio about half of the time. Most other people would be fine on the 2,500 litre allowance. I think some Kias can also take veg oil, there is a list on the vegetableoildiesel website. Most should alsobe fine on biodiesel, but you have to find good quality stuff...which is difficult these days.
 

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M4trundler said:
If you've got a suitable car you can run on straight veg oil no worries. I quite often use my old people carrier instead of the Rio because of cost. The mpg is not so good with a people carrier, but motorway cruising at 65 mphit will do over 40 mpg, compared to the 51 mpg I usually get from the Rio. But you can get new veg oil for 90p a litre from the shops compared to £1.43 for derv. In the winter I add 10% petrol to the veg oil to lower the viscosity. But you can only use 2,500 litres of home made bio diesel or veg oil per year before the tax man gets on your case. So for me I still use the Rio about half of the time. Most other people would be fine on the 2,500 litre allowance. I think some Kias can also take veg oil, there is a list on the vegetableoildiesel website. Most should alsobe fine on biodiesel, but you have to find good quality stuff...which is difficult these days.





Aye if you really want to motor on the cheap, go spend a grand on the best VW TDI (pre-99) that you can find and run it on SVO. You will stink like a chip fat fryer (which can make you surprisingly peckish!) but you will have the ability to run on free fuel if you can get it locally from restaurants/take aways.



You could go for and Old Merc, but from the forums the cost of keeping these going is really starting to get prohibative, the VW cars (octy/Fabia/passat/golf/polo/A4/A3/A6/et al) are all pretty modern, well specced(ish) and offer few compromises other than age.



My sis-in laws 98 Octy estate will pretty much run on anything you pour in the tank! Cost £1100 even has A/C!
 

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Big boz what the carbon build up like when running SVO is it a lot worse than your diesel you get from the garages. The reason I'm asking is I used to run my Suzzy GT250 on Castrol R which is a veggy oil and the carbon build up was more than the normal 2Stroke oil and hard as a whores heart on the piston head and combustion chamber. But the smell was brill and it made the bike run great.
 

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Carbon build up hasnt been noticable in the Octy at all, it needs new fuel filters about every 4k miles, but they are only £4 from G&S and takes 5 mins on an octy as its under the bonnet.
Car runs great on SVO, she got it at 111k miles and its been run mostly on SVO but also a bit on Bio and Mineral when needs must ever since, its up to £128k now with out a hitch, i have never got a PD much over 125k before the dreaded turbo vanes got stuck, but not much you can do about that, I have told here to expect a cheeky £500 bill in the not too distant future!



In terms of general smoking from the exhaust, bio and veg give a very white smoke rether than the black that you get from mineral. Somone once approached me in a car park and told me that my head gasket had gone on the A4, it was a cold day and one of the turbo pipe was loose so the car looked like it was running on dry ice!
 
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