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Why does my Picanto 54 plate only do about 11 degrees at 3000 and about 17 degrees at 4000 fully loaded? And is there a way of increasing it without getting to the crank sensor and slotting the holes?
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Perhaps 28-35 max, not 17, and because the world is not running round with 3 star petrol anymore!
 

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Grem said:
Why does my Picanto 54 plate only do about 11 degrees at 3000 and about 17 degrees at 4000 fully loaded? And is there a way of increasing it without getting to the crank sensor and slotting the holes?

All modern cars have fully mapped ignition and fueling. The manufacturer will have spend 1000's of hours developing the map. The only way to adjust it is to find someone who has access to Kia software but its unlikely you will improve anything, in truth you are more likely to cause damage.

If you simply moved the sensor by slotting the holes you would change the timing by the same amount everywhere which would without doubt be bad for the engine especially since you had made no changes to the fueling that may be required.

If its running OK leave it alone.
 

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Moving sensor would advance at all revs upwards causing knocking. Probably on a 13 year old engine this will be its last before visiting the scrapyard.
 

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Grem,your car will self adjust ignition timing according to the performance of the petrol in it. There is a knock sensor specifically to allow measurement. You also have not said exactly how you are measuring the timing angle - particularly as you state the measurements are under load. What do you get at idle under no load?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Acenta said:
Grem said:
Why does my Picanto 54 plate only do about 11 degrees at 3000 and about 17 degrees at 4000 fully loaded? And is there a way of increasing it without getting to the crank sensor and slotting the holes?

All modern cars have fully mapped ignition and fueling. The manufacturer will have spend 1000's of hours developing the map. The only way to adjust it is to find someone who has access to Kia software but its unlikely you will improve anything, in truth you are more likely to cause damage.

If you simply moved the sensor by slotting the holes you would change the timing by the same amount everywhere which would without doubt be bad for the engine especially since you had made no changes to the fueling that may be required.

If its running OK leave it alone.
The timing figures on load is all I care about, it's 40 plus off load atm, yes the current map has been carefully made but to achieve good emissions results, not to achieve good power, with this ridiculously low timing it's going to be creating unecessary heat, and I accept that it's going to be equally ridiculously weak 99% of the time and will hopefully come back to some safe figures when on loadEdited by: Grem
 

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Discussion Starter #9
BIRDMAN said:
Moving sensor would advance at all revs upwards causing knocking. Probably on a 13 year old engine this will be its last before visiting the scrapyard.
Not at 17 max unless it was over about 14.5:1.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Turnup said:
Grem, your car will self adjust ignition timing according to the performance of the petrol in it.  There is a knock sensor specifically to allow measurement.  You also have not said exactly how you are measuring the timing angle - particularly as you state the measurements are under load.  What do you get at idle under no load?
I have a diagnostic reader plugged in and am driving it, watching spark advance, the knock sensor is only doing any good atm the moment off load, which if you say will retard timing then it should do if i go too much, which I wont do, and it wont pink anyway. At idle under no load it moves quite erratically between about 2 After top dead to about 15 before
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I experience complete HT failure momentarily radily under load at low revs, most would describe as a misfire which it isn't

From experience on many different designs of engines can be caused by seriously low timing like this
 

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Grem said:
yes the current map has been carefully made but to achieve good emissions results, not to achieve good power,

Grem, its a 14 year old Kia Picanto which is a city car and not a performance car. You will destroy the engine if you try and DIY tune it this way. If you want more power PX the Picanto and buy something that delivers the power you want.

Kia know far more about tuning their engines than you do.
 

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Grem said:
I experience complete HT failure momentarily radily under load at low revs, most would describe as a misfire which it isn't

From experience on many different designs of engines can be caused by seriously low timing like this

Without meaning to be disrespectful 'Grem', do you actually know anything about internal combustion engines or are your skills in another field?

You question is not of the kind usually asked on regular car forums although it may be a subject addressed from time to time in engine-tuning forums. I suggest you do a little more research in the tuning area rather than on a forum like this which is more an owner/users' platform in regard to common complaints afflicting various Kia models.

I'm sorry your question hasn't been answered to your satisfaction.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Acenta said:
Grem said:
yes the current map has been carefully made but to achieve good emissions results, not to achieve good power,

Grem, its a 14 year old Kia Picanto which is a city car and not a performance car. You will destroy the engine if you try and DIY tune it this way. If you want more power PX the Picanto and buy something that delivers the power you want.

Kia know far more about tuning their engines than you do.
Perhaps Kia know more about tunomg their engines but clearly they didn't put a whole lot of effort into tuning this one, would like to explain why I will ""˜destroy my engine if I try to DIY tune it this way'
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Indalo said:
Grem said:
I experience complete HT failure momentarily radily under load at low revs, most would describe as a misfire which it isn't

From experience on many different designs of engines can be caused by seriously low timing like this

Without meaning to be disrespectful 'Grem', do you actually know anything about internal combustion engines or are your skills in another field?  

You question is not of the kind usually asked on regular car forums although it may be a subject addressed from time to time in engine-tuning forums.  I suggest you do a little more research in the tuning area rather than on a forum like this which is more an owner/users' platform in regard to common complaints afflicting various Kia models.

I'm sorry your question hasn't been answered to your satisfaction.
Yes I do and I would put money on knowing more than you.

If I ask if anyone knows about a tiny kia engine on a tuning forum I will get laughed out of the door which is why I came here to see if there was any Kia boffins, clearly none so far..

I have more desire to alter the timing so that it is running better as oposed to simply power gain, retarding it this much is damaging for an engine, exhaust valves will over heat, silencers will burn out sooner, amongst other reasons. You do not ""˜tune' a naturally aspirated petrol engine, you get it right, and there is no more to be had unless you modify something, and when it is right the engine is being least stressed and will naturally make the most power and torque, unlike a diesel or blown engine when the sky is the limit and it's how far you want to go or how deep your pockets are
 

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Grem said:
retarding it this much is damaging for an engine, exhaust valves will over heat, silencers will burn out sooner, amongst other reasons.

The car is 14 years old. If Kia had installed an ignition map that was damaging the engine it would have died long ago. The fact that you appear to be wanting to preserve this car I will presume its actually running perfectly fine and my guess is providing you leave it well alone it will continue to do so. There are according the the internet 6753 2004 Picanto's still on licenced so its obvious that there is not a huge epidermic of ignition related engine failures.

I have modified more than a few cars in my past but that was back in the days of clockwork distributors and carburetors plus it was only a days job to stick a bigger engine out of a recent write off since using the old Escort Mk2 as an example they all used the same x-flow engine but in different capacities (excluding the RS2000 which used a Pinto).

Now I simply buy a car with enough power and enjoy it. With engine management and coding of components simple swaps are no longer easily achievable on the front yard.
 

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Grem said:
Turnup said:
Grem,your car will self adjust ignition timing according to the performance of the petrol in it. There is a knock sensor specifically to allow measurement. You also have not said exactly how you are measuring the timing angle - particularly as you state the measurements are under load. What do you get at idle under no load?
I have a diagnostic reader plugged in and am driving it, watching spark advance, the knock sensor is only doing any good atm the moment off load, which if you say will retard timing then it should do if i go too much, which I wont do, and it wont pink anyway. At idle under no load it moves quite erratically between about 2 After top dead to about 15 before
I think you are misinterpreting the readout. It is not showing advance from TDC, it is showing difference from the base advance. That 2 after is not 2 after TDC, it is 2 after the nominal firing point, which will be some degree of advance. Put another way the indicated 0 is already somewhere between 15 and 25 BTDC and your readout is showing difference from that reference. I doubt it would run at all if it were firing 2 after TDC at idle. WRT knock sensor - you don't expect knock sensing to be performed all the time do you? The only variable that the knock sensor is compensating is the quality of the fuel - this is most easily detected at idle and would be damaging if your engine was knocking at speed under load. The knock sensor sets advance parameter to get best out of fuelat idle and with that base figure the map can take care of the rest of the rpm and load range. Fuel does not change its characteristic except when you put more in so no need to continuously sense knock.

Do you honestly believe that you know the correct ignition timing better than the engine designers?

Tell you what - go right ahead and slot the sensors and report back here the results.
 

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Turnup said:
Do you honestly believe that you know the correct ignition timing better than the engine designers?
Tell you what - go right ahead and slot the sensors and report back here the results.
I can't wait!
 
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