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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi Guys

Just after a bit of advice hopefully,

So a bit of background to my issue, I bought a 3 year old Sorento back in March last year, the car had a fault literally driving it home from the garage which was reported straight away. The car intermittently goes into Limp mode but with no dash lights or flagging any error messages. Initially it was doing it 5 to 6 times a week, but now can occur anywhere between once weekly or have a 4 or 5 week gap before it does it. It also has "sticky" steering

It has since been into the Kia Dealers 4 times to try and repair the fault to no avail. In November they tried to fix the steering, but when I picked the car up the steering wheel was off centre, the car pulled to the left and I could drive around a right had bend whilst steering left. This had to be corrected by a local ATS garage.

I raised a complaint after I was no longer getting a response from the dealer, they contacted me to take another look at the car and have had it for the last week. They have now said they still can't find the fault so they no longer know what to do. It was escalated to the Kia Tech Team last November who offered the dealer support, but were still unable to locate the issue.

I won't take my kids in the car in it's current state, as you can imagine losing all power at major junctions with no warning lights is quite dangerous. I can't sell the vehicle privately knowing it has this fault, and if I trade it in I'll take a loss on a car that has always been a nail.

So my question is, am I entitled to now ask for them to replace the vehicle for like for like or refund me? Or is my only option to take a loss?

Thanks
Si
 

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You are going to struggle after so long.
You should have rejected the car once they had tried and failed to fix it, when you got it.

What age, mileage etc is the car?
Was it bought from a Kia dealer or a 3rd party garage?
Is the car on any sort of finance?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I did ask for a refund in my 30 day cooling off period but was told no, its not that simple (via email) It's took so long to get to this point due to the dealer advising they initially couldn't get the car in, then weren't allowed to provide a hire car, which turns out not to be entirely true. The car was bought about 45 miles away so I literally couldn't get home if there was no courtesy car

It was bought direct from the Kia dealer, it had 12k on the clock and bought 16k cash and part ex 4k
 

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I think you would be best to ring Citizens advice and see where you stand on your consumer rights. Given the length of time involved.
The fact that there is no finance (did you use a credit card for deposit?) makes life harder. As you may end up going via small claims court.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
So called I the Citizens advice, essentially if they can't repair or replace the vehicle I can ask for a refund which would probably be a part refund taking off the mileage I've done this last 11 months.

I also spoke to a solicitor and they basically said that as it's 20k, it would be a fast track court not a small claims court, which if I lose I would be liable for Kia's court costs.

Essentially, the dealer can circumnavigate your rights by purposefully dragging the process out an extended period of time by point blank ignore you, make it difficult for you get the car back to them and finally feed you false information to put you on the wrong trail.

I know this won't just be limited to Kia but I can say I'll never buy another Kia, it's been the worst financial mistake of my life
 

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I did ask for a refund in my 30 day cooling off period but was told no, its not that simple (via email)
They lied to you. You are entitled to a refund in the first 30 days under the Customer Rights Act 2015. Any Judge worth his wages would take that into account and find in your favour in a perfect world but it may not be that simple.

You really need to speak to a Solicitor that specialises in law such as the Customer Rights Act 2015.

But it could get very expensive.

Maybe as well just to cut your losses and learn.

In future remember the 3 golden rules of the Motor Trade

Rule 1 All dealers are liars

Rule 2 All dealers are liars

Rule 3 refer to Rules 1 and 2
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I think you might be right, I suppose when I way it up my families safety or a 5k loss if I chop it in it's pretty straight forward, both Kia and the Lookers Dealer have made it clear by their actions they have no interest in my families well being.

Breaks my heart really, we saved for nearly 2 years with the idea of buying the Sorento as we need the 2 extra seats for the grand parents, we picked Kia because of the warranty and more so their rep, and it turns out to be the biggest mistake of my life. I'd have been safer buying a 1990 Citroen Picasso

I'll also never buy a car over 10k again either, at least if I get shafted I can take it to a small claims court and walk away without a 60k bill if I lose
 

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Essentially, the dealer can circumnavigate your rights by purposefully dragging the process out an extended period of time by point blank ignore you, make it difficult for you get the car back to them and finally feed you false information to put you on the wrong trail.

I know this won't just be limited to Kia but I can say I'll never buy another Kia, it's been the worst financial mistake of my life

No they can't as the clocks stops once you register the issue. If it is not fixed on 1st attempt then you can reject. Sadly allowing to drag on so long as not helped your case.

To be fair to Kia, your consumer rights are with the dealer. Kia will only be involved if it is a warranty claim.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I didn't really have a choice, the first time they looked at the car was November! That's how long it took me to get the car over to them. Kia customer services also told me the dealer needs 3 attempts at fixing it which also appears not to be true then
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
So if we look at this as a warranty issue instead of a consumer rights issue, where do I stand on this basis? The car still has 3 years warranty and the garage has put there hands and said they cant fix the fault
 

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So if we look at this as a warranty issue instead of a consumer rights issue, where do I stand on this basis? The car still has 3 years warranty and the garage has put there hands and said they cant fix the fault
Depends if it covered by the warranty. Warranty being valid is dependent on being serviced in line with Kia's schedule, So that could depend on previous owner & if you have had the annual service.

Kia stating 3 attempts may be in relation to their warranty. It is certainly not in relation to your consumer rights.

A lot depends on how hard you want to press lookers. Only you can decide if you want to keep pushing or bite the bullet and get shot of the car.
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Thanks iooi, car has full service history with said Lookers and was originally bought from new there by the previous owner. They've said the fault is a warranty issue as they have been trying to get me take it to my local Kia.

I was pushing them to keep trying to fix it as it's cloudy whether it's one or the other. I guess my consumer rights are out of window though.

I just don't want to take to my local dealer and them go through a list what's not covered under warranty first at my expense as they said they'd start from scratch with the investigation. Lookers have already ruled out all the basic stuff like DPF, egr
 

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You can take your car to any Kia dealer for warranty work. That dealer will almost certainly want to see proof that all servicing has been carried out to the letter and that will mean you will have to provide original invoices for services, this is clearly stated in the warranty T & C's. If you don't already have these there could be a problem. Under data protection garages are very reluctant to pass info on about a previous owners history. When PX's my last car in October last year (it was 3 years 8 months old) I took all the info I had i.e. service book, receipts, annual maintenance print offs and the dealer (the same one I had bought it from) said we don't want those, data protection issues. So how does the new owner find out the car was maintained exactly as per the manufacturers schedule at a franchised dealer.

Its shocking to me that Kia have no central service record, I thought that was poor in 2010 when we bought our Ceed considering that VW had a computerised system in the mid 90's. For a company who wants to be a major player not to have such a system in 2020 is totally unbelievable. If computer systems were rare and expensive it would be an excuse, but they are not.

One other fact. The Consumer Rights Act 2015 covers the consumer for 6 years from purchase (not new). The first 30 days are simple, one attempt at a fix and if it does not work reject with a 100% refund. From 30 days to 6 months I think its 3 attempts and the dealer can keep a sum of cash equivalent to the use the owner has has, unfortunately the act does not state how this is calculated. Both these DO NOT require the customer to prove anything about the fault.

After 6 months it gets more difficult for the customer. You would need to prove that the fault was present when you bought the car and that will require paying for a engineers report. If it went to court you would also need to pay that engineer as an expert witness. It gets expensive. Where I worked until I retired we acted as expert witnesses on many cases and the rate was about 拢120 an hour + costs. As an example if an engineer or scientist was required we would charge for all the hours they were there not just the time on the stand. If council asked them to attend and they sat 2 weeks and were never called the bill including hotels and travelling would be well over 拢10,000.

I would suggest that your car has either been rejected for the fault previously or sold on because the Kia garage have been unable to sort the issue and the owner has become frustrated of has simply cut his losses.
experior
All manufacturers have problem cars. they never scrap them, most get sold at auction and end up at a non-franchised garage.experior

Kia customer services also told me the dealer needs 3 attempts at fixing it which also appears not to be true then
Kia Customer Services are not Kia. Its a call centre and they have a script they work from. They will certainly have some knowledgeable and helpful operatives but they will have far more useless souls who are simply sitting there answering the phone between coffees and the next nail bar visit (when its allowed).
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Thank you, all servicing was done at the Lookers Dealer hopefully that should be ok, this March will be the first time it's been serviced outside of that dealer.

It's frustrating as Covid played a part not been able to get the car to them, I bought the car on the 14th of March, reported it straight away with a video of the fault which they acknowledged in writing, but on the 16th we went into full lockdown. The first time they were able to look at the car was November, which my point to them is thats not my fault I reported it immediately and requested a refund when they said they can't look at the car, but either way the opportunity for them to look at the car in the first 3 / 6 months was missed due to no fault of my own. Every week I asked via email when they can look at the car and the answer was always the same, they couldn't

I've spoken to other 4 other Kia dealerships who advised they would have either come out and collected the car or would have still been able to provide a long time courtesy car whilst it was sorted, but no such offer from Lookers.

Just been looking through emails on this as there is a lot going off, and one thing I haven't mentioned is Kia Customer Services are saying it isn't a warranty issue it's a Consumer Rights issue, and the Dealer is saying it's definitely a warranty issue.
 

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Just been looking through emails on this as there is a lot going off, and one thing I haven't mentioned is Kia Customer Services are saying it isn't a warranty issue it's a Consumer Rights issue, and the Dealer is saying it's definitely a warranty issue.
Regardless of who is saying what your contract is with the organisation you bought the car from which is Lookers. You have no contract with Kia since you have not paid them a single penny.

So get a well written letter sent to Lookers reminding them of the facts (only the facts) and also make sure you make it clear that the 8 month delay due to Covid is not your issue.

But why 8 months delay? The wifes Skoda was due a service April 30th by date, it was cancelled due to the lockdown. The following week they reopened and the service was carried out late May. If a small(ish) family owned franchise can do that why does a large multisite national organisation have such large issues?
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Thanks back again, this is the thing that got my back the most, when they were playing the covid card I called round the other dealers who all said they'd do this or that to sort it but either way it would have been sorted. I went back to lookers with that info and asked why out of 5 garages they are the only one that can't do it and they just refused to answer the question. For 10 months they said the courtesy car wasn't possible because of covid restrictions, but when I put a complaint in suddenly one became available that same day!

The solicitor said that will be done to drag it past the point of no return, although he did say if it went to a court that it may not hold up from there side. He actually went through what tactics they would use i.e. refuse hire car, delayed communication and other things just to make it as difficult as possible to get it back to them. I guess he see this behavior a lot.
 

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But why 8 months delay? The wifes Skoda was due a service April 30th by date, it was cancelled due to the lockdown. The following week they reopened and the service was carried out late May. If a small(ish) family owned franchise can do that why does a large multisite national organisation have such large issues?
Could be lookers did not open as they are primarily a sales co, and not like most manufacture dealers also do their own servicing, which even in the 1st lockdown was still allowed to be open, although many did close to get proper procedures in place.
Like now servicing is open, but sales are closed (unless via distance selling)

On a fix by warranty (which may require a diagnostic cost to you, but will be refunded if is dealt with under warranty.) Is that the T/C of Kia warranty is they do not provide a car while it is being fixed. Any car will have to be agreed with the dealer doing the work.
 

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Get it to a Kia dealer and if the service book is stamped up it should be rectified under warranty. The services are basically just oil and filter changes with other fluid checks and a general once over anyway and would not impact on any electrical, electronic or emissions system fault.
The problem is very likely to be something wrong with the emission control system, probably a sensor or actuator. So don't despair, just buckle down, take it to a Kia dealer and see how they get on. If they can't sort it, then a competent independent mechanic will probably do so for a [hopefully] small charge.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
So they've sold the courtesy car I currently have and need to offload my car back so the customer can pick it up, they've said even though I have video evidence of the fault, as they can't replicate it both themselves and Kia agree there is no fault and are closing the case. With regards if it can't be fixed they need to replace it, they've said as there is "no" fault this isn't an option for me
 

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I don't quite understand. If it goes into limp-home mode there would surely be a fault code logged in the car's ECU. While the fault code might lead directly to the fault, it should give them a clear indication of which system or circuit was faulty. If there is a fault code or codes, then they can't claim that there is no problem. If there is no fault code, which you seem to confirm, what's going on?
What does it do or doesn't do when it goes into limp-home mode? Why is it that it never acts up when in for repairs?

Unless you are very sure that you can show and prove the fault, I would not waste money on legal costs. Perhaps you could commission an independent engineer's report which proved a fault, you would be on much safer ground for this route.
 
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