[Drwho2]

The arguments will, of course, rage on for many more months/years. However, the difficulties and cost in providing the necessary infrastructure for reliable, safe, accessible to all and quick charging makes me wonder if PHEV/EVs are anything more than a short term fix until something 'better' is fully developed. I found the following Autocar article very interesting (I know it's not the first by any means).
Under the skin: Synthetic fuels now make more sense than ever | Autocar

 

[iooi]

That is the way F1 is going.

Only issue I can see, and not explained in the article is just what is involved in the production & how much carbon is that going to produce.

Very much like the Bio-Mass conversion of one power station to save emissions. Only to find that the vast majority of this is exported from both south & north america... So in actual terms more carbon & pollution is created than is saved.

 

[Drwho2]

That is the way F1 is going.

Only issue I can see, and not explained in the article is just what is involved in the production & how much carbon is that going to produce.

Very much like the Bio-Mass conversion of one power station to save emissions. Only to find that the vast majority of this is exported from both south & north america... So in actual terms more carbon & pollution is created than is saved.

Not disagreeing iooi but as I read it is supposed to be carbon neutral (that doesn't mean it won't produce CO2 - The CO2 emissions from synthetic fuel will be equivalent to the CO2 extracted to make it, so no harm done). The other potential benefit is it's suitability for older ICEs.

 

[iooi]

My only fear with "Carbon Neutral" is that companies buy "Carbon Credits" which means they say it is a neutral product, but in reality it is not.

A carbon credit is a permit that allows the company that holds it to emit a certain amount of carbon dioxide or other greenhouse gases. One credit permits the emission of a mass equal to one ton of carbon dioxide.

Synthetic fuels explained: is there such a thing as carbon neutral petrol? | Evo

Could carbon-neutral synthetic fuels save the internal combustion engine and safeguard the future of the cars we love?

www.evo.co.uk

But we need alternatives to this blind head long rush to EV's that the politicians have started. This needs to be lead by the manufactures of both Fuels & Vehicles.
But fear that the cynical green movement will object purely on the grounds that the companies are doing to ensure their survival, profits & not to produce the best products for the environment.

 

[Davidb123]

I must admit Like electric cars , but am also interested in other fuel technologies, but I do think that manufacturers marketing will push forward the technology that the majority of manufacturers support, VW have stated that as far as they are concerned hydrogen is not the future for propelling cars and will invest in electric cars in the future, I think it’s going to be like beta versus vhs, beta was always said to be the best technology but vhs won the day through the power of marketing , will it be the same for cars?

 

[Back again]

VW have stated that as far as they are concerned hydrogen is not the future for propelling cars and will invest in electric cars in the future,

VAG group have been investing in electric cars for years. They already have some on the road in their Audi, Skoda and VW brands (in fact VW now have the ID sub brand for electric cars).

I think it’s going to be like beta versus vhs, beta was always said to be the best technology but vhs won the day through the power of marketing , will it be the same for cars?

It wasn't the power of marketing, it was the simple fact that virtually every manufacturer adopted the VHS format (no idea why) except for Sony (who invented Betamax) and Sanyo (who later decamped into VHS).

Then there was the hire business. Go into a hire shop in the early 80's and there were row upon row of VHS rentals, Beta rentals occupied a book case at best.

I toyed with the idea of Beta but common sense (not marketing) drove my decision.

 

[Davidb123]

It wasn't the power of marketing, it was the simple fact that virtually every manufacturer adopted the VHS format (no idea why) except for Sony (who invented Betamax) and Sanyo (who later decamped into VHS).

Then there was the hire business. Go into a hire shop in the early 80's and there were row upon row of VHS rentals, Beta rentals occupied a book case at best.

I toyed with the idea of Beta but common sense (not marketing) drove my decision.

But did this not come down to the fact that when you went shopping for a recorder, there where more vhs players on the shelf than beta ones and more advertising for vhs ones? Is this the way car sales will go ? Look at the situation now Toyota make a hydrogen propelled car , which although expensive is apparently very good , but hardly marketed in this country, at the end of the day manufacturers create a product then the marketing agencies create ways for maximum exposure to drive sales, all I am suggesting is is the way our car technology will go?

 

[Back again]

Toyota make a hydrogen propelled car , which although expensive is apparently very good , but hardly marketed in this country

Could that be because there is only 13 places you can fill with hydrogen in the UK (5 in the south east), you actually stand more chance of completing your journey in a electric car. Worldwide Toyota had sold about 11,000 Mirais between its introduction in 2015 to the end of 2020.

Seems that the biggest fleet in the UK is operated by the Met Police, they have 11.

I cannot see it dominating the world especially when a whole new infrastructure would need installing for distribution.

 

[Davidb123]

My point exactly sales are dictated by market forces, it may be a great car but it won’t sell in huge numbers because big companies won’t invest in the info structure to refuel it ,the same may happen with bio fuel technology who knows?

 

[iooi]

I cannot see it dominating the world especially when a whole new infrastructure would need installing for distribution.

Especially when you have the politicians pushing EV.

The only way hydrogen would take off is if the commercial manufactures started pushing it. Then you would see the infrastructure build up.

The commercial market is one place that EV is going to be hard to take a hold in. Unless there is a massive development in battery tech that allows really long range with large weight carriage ability.
Yes we are seeing vans using EV, but even then it is just for local deliveries. DPD are supposed to have some, but talking to our delivery driver. He has no chance as he does 300+ miles a day. So they either employ more people, spend more on vans or carry on with ICE.
You can see where the bean counters get their answer from...

 

[Drwho2]

My point exactly sales are dictated by market forces, it may be a great car but it won’t sell in huge numbers because big companies won’t invest in the info structure to refuel it ,the same may happen with bio fuel technology who knows?

David & Back again, The infrastructure for biofuels is already in place, they are called filling/petrol stations.
That was the point when comparing the massive difficulties of providing an electric infrastructure imho.

 

[Back again]

David & Back again, The infrastructure for biofuels is already in place, they are called filling/petrol stations.
That was the point when comparing the massive difficulties of providing an electric infrastructure imho.

You cannot store hydrogen in existing fuel tanks and you cannot transport it in existing tankers. The existing network of fuel distribution pipes that criss/cross the country cannot transport hydrogen.

So whilst the filling stations are there they are as much use ofr dispensing hydrogen as they are electric. Except of course electric can be "transported" in existing cables.

 

[Drwho2]

You cannot store hydrogen in existing fuel tanks and you cannot transport it in existing tankers. The existing network of fuel distribution pipes that criss/cross the country cannot transport hydrogen.

So whilst the filling stations are there they are as much use ofr dispensing hydrogen as they are electric. Except of course electric can be "transported" in existing cables.

Who mentioned hydrogen? My post relates to synthetic/biofuels which like current E5/E10 can/will be dispensed through standard/existing fuel pumps/stations.

 

[Back again]

Who mentioned hydrogen? My post relates to synthetic/biofuels which like current E5/E10 can/will be dispensed through standard/existing fuel pumps/stations.

But since the sale of ICE engined cars are being banned from 2030 I cannot see any companies investing large scale in new technology that is doomed already. It may have its place in keeping classics on the road but that will have its own issues, classics using E5 have some issues, I know, been there, done that.

 

[rcwood08]

It may not be the way to look at it but in reality if the government double my road tax to £700 a year and increase the fuel duty..the amount of mileage I do...it will still be cheaper than changing my car?

 

[Drwho2]

But since the sale of ICE engined cars are being banned from 2030 I cannot see any companies investing large scale in new technology that is doomed already. It may have its place in keeping classics on the road but that will have its own issues, classics using E5 have some issues, I know, been there, done that.

I don't know where you get the idea from that synthetic fuels are doomed already? Many large scale companies are investing in alternative energy sources outside Electric. That is the point of my original post and post title.
The article, which I assume you read?, clearly states;
"To be clear, synthetic fuel isn’t ethanol, the type of alcohol in alcoholic drinks, made through fermentation, which is also used as a 5% blend in petrol and later this year 10% to further reduce CO2 emissions. As a product of fermentation, ethanol is produced biologically. Engines have to be made compatible with the corrosive effects of ethanol, whereas synthetic fuel causes no problems.

 

[iooi]

The issue with either of the options & synthetic fuel does have something going for it. Is getting the politicians to change tack and allow it as a option.
But that is down to the industry to lobby them on. Good luck on that

 

[Drwho2]

The issue with either of the options & synthetic fuel does have something going for it. Is getting the politicians to change tack and allow it as a option.
But that is down to the industry to lobby them on. Good luck on that

Pretty much agree but a lot can change in the 9/10 years before the ban on new ICE cars comes in. And then there will be another 10 years at least of existing ICEs needing fuel. So that gives conservatively 15 years for Synthetic fuel development. The other problem, politically, in the suggestion that conventional fuel (petrol/diesel) could/would be more heavily taxed will always hit the less well off in society who cannot afford to buy newer cars. So, imho, as now there will still be many 10-15 year old ICE vehicles on the road for a long time to come.
What actually will happen only time will tell.

 

[Vestas]

Re the VHS/Betamax stuff.

Betamax failed because (as always) Sony initially demanded stupid "per-unit" licensing fees. This means you couldn't really make enough to survive building/selling/marketing the "clones" unless (IIRC) you were directly funded by Sony - like Sanyo.

They didn't quite learn their lesson on that and pretty much got their entire lunch eaten (ie going bust) on monitor technology. Trinitron licensing fees accelerated flat panel development in their competitors like you wouldn't believe.

Re fuel :

The synthetics are a step towards hydrogen-based fuel cells. This is the way of the future even with all the issues. IMHO of course, YMMV.

Lithium batteries - and the charging infrastructure which is going to require a lot of concrete - probably cancel out most of the overall carbon benefits in the next 10 years.

They will provide great improvements in cities due to lower pollution but overall its a stop-gap and it might be viewed in retrospect as we now view nuclear power stations. Once upon a time the mantra was "too cheap to meter" - bill for the clean up is a lot now though

Things to think about really.....

 

[Drwho2]

A bit more on synthetic fuels and their place in the 'greener' future.

Carbon-neutral transport – the role of synthetic fuel - FEV Corporate Magazine