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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Does anyone recall if the first service improved the noise from the diesel engine. Mine is quite 'knocky' particularly when pulling away. Car has done 6k. It was lovely when new but sounds like a old truck now. Are any adjustments made on the 12 month service? No other issues other than a crap gearbox.
 

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There are no adjustments to be made. You could check that the engine cover is in place and fitted properly and that the air filter is in place and securely fastened.
The only other thing that can generate diesel knock is the fuel itself and you should avoid supermarket fuel like the plague. Try to use branded fuel at least but better still the high grade fuel like Shell V- Power, BP Ultra or Total Excellium. You will find these significantly reduce knock especially when cold.
 

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as you get used to the car and the clutch it is natural to use a few less revs when pulling away.... this is when the engine makes the tractor noise...... give it few more revs and its fine.... mine does the same.
 

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Gear box does get better as you go on, I am not convinced that expensive fuel is worth the extra cost involved.I have not come across evidence anywhere that say's that it is only in the fuel companies own literture which I take with a pinch of salt. The engine does sound noisey when cold but again it seems to settle in with mileage increasing over a period of time.The performance in general does improve with the diesel as the miles go on.
 

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actually do people find that as the car gets older it does drive better????...... mine always drives best just after a wash and just before a service!!!......... i was "enjoying" some country lanes the other night and car was great.... smooth , quiet, lusty and just seemed to sit down on the road and stick on the bends.
 

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Dave R said:
Gear box does get better as you go on, I am not convinced that expensive fuel is worth the extra cost involved.I have not come across evidence anywhere that say's that it is only in the fuel companies own literture which I take with a pinch of salt. The engine does sound noisey when cold but again it seems to settle in with mileage increasing over a period of time.The performance in general does improve with the diesel as the miles go on.
You have to try it.

The extra mileage only offsets the extra cost so in that respect there is no benefit but it does make a difference to the engine sound and I can tell you from experience that it does not clog up EGR valves and inlet manifolds.

Toyota are currently running an extended warranty program for engines damaged by supermarket fuel. In conjunction with oil consumption the entire engine becomes choked by carbon deposits and they are fitting new engines as fast as they can make them.
 

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Bugger, just put 20 quids worth of diesel in at asda(135.7). Your right the motor is not as responsive when running the cheap stuff, normally run bp.
 

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I'm not a believer that asda fuel is any different although before I got rid of my passat I had to have a full set of injectors and heater plugs at only 60k miles. And I always filled up at asda so you may be making a believer out of me. Also had the pump let go on me a few years back in freezing cold temps, frozen water in the fuel maybe?

Back in the days when fuel was cheap and people used to care more about making things last my farthe only ever used to fill up 25lt jerry cans, the old steal ones, then fill up at home after running it through a filtered funnel with a couple of sheets of gauze in.
 

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These days fuel tends to be quite clean especially in a supermarket or other busy fuel station where the turnover is high. It is smaller back street garages that present a risk and the biggest culprit is usually water. For that reason a fuel filter on a petrol is usually a small "in line" affair with a very long service interval. Diesel cars are a little different because the engine only uses a very small proportion of what is pumped. The flow of fuel back to the tank is virtually the same as what is pumped and so a vast amount of fuel is circulated and the filter is very much larger. A big fuel filter is usually changed every 30 or 40k and there is always provision to drain water off. The Soul has a warning light operated by a float if water should settle in the filter.


If you sit outside one of the big fuel terminals you will see that all brands have trucks arriving and departing. The fuel arrives from the coastal refineries by pipeline. They pump all kinds of fuel in one large diameter pipe so petrol might arrive at Erdington (Birmingham) from Milford Haven having travelled at virtually walking pacefor a couple of days. The way they seperate the petrol from diesel or any other fuel (kerosene for aircraft comes through the same pipe) is with a large leather ball called a "pig". The pig is forced through the pipe following the petrol and then thenext fuel goes through so it travels around the country in blocks - all the fuel you buy is delivered through this national network of pipes. Every now and again the pipe has to be purged and it is done with?...........



...........water! So water is also travelling through the pipe in blocks. This process never stops.



Back to the petrol/diesel. The trucks line up at the terminal (distribution centre) and fill up with what you might call neat or pure fuel. It is as the tanker is loaded that the end users additives are added. All sorts of things go in - detergents, cetane or octane modifiers (these create the different grades of fuel that we used to know as 2, 3, 4 and 5 star grades. Any time now, the percentage of anti-freeze will go up in diesel and what used to be a common occurance of freezing diesel (it actually turned waxy and blocked the filter) is all but eliminated. These days only the equivalent of 4 star [regular] or 5 star [super unleaded] in petrol and similar comparisons for diesel) are available. Supermarket fuel is cheap for a reason. It has less of the additives. You normal branded fuels like Shell, BP, Total, Esso (not Esso distrubuted for Tesco) are much more loaded with additives. Supermarket "super unleaded petrol" is only the equivelant of any of these branded regulars and are no cheaper. Branded fuel super unleaded is better again and so up goes the cost. Pinking or "detonation" as it is correctly termed is a noise that can come from the engine under load. It occurs when the mixture of fuel and air explodes instead of burning in a controlled and steady manner that is needed to drive the piston down. In other words, low grade fuel is more volatile than high grade fuel. It has a tendancy to go "bang" instead of expending its energy in a steady manner. The same applies to high and low grade diesel but the effect is knock or harshness under load and especially when cold. These days engines are fitted with knock sensors which are screwed in the side of the engine block. When they sense detonation, they are able to retard the ignition timing in a petrol or injection timing in a diesel which eliminates the knock but takes the edge off optimum performance. It follows that engines running on supermarket fuels are running with almost permanently surpressed performance - it has to be this way to protect the engine from damage. As well as this reduced performance, the other big disadvantage is that the detergents that are used to reduce carbon deposits are not present in sufficient quantityin cheap fuel and so the risk of clogging catalytic converters and exhaust gas recirculation systems is much higher. Vehicle manufacturers are faced with a dilemma as they cannot suggest you do not use these cheap fuels because it makes the car prohibitive and less attractive to buyers. Most people want to save 2 or 3p per litre and that is that. This explanation is not a theory, I have spent time at a fuel terminal and watched what happens. Yes you can watch the supermarket tankers leave the same terminal as the branded fuel but they do not carry the same product. The same old rule applies to petrol and diesel as it does for almost any other product - you get what you pay for.



If you try a tank of high grade fuel you can tell the difference. You can also tell the difference between Hienz, HP or Branston beans compared to any supermarket brand but you will pay a small premium for the honour. You are not doing your vehicle any favours by running it on supermarket fuel. Please yourself what you believe.
 

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I say to hell with the environment and stick lead back in fuel. That was a major additive that stopped pre detonation while allowing for higher compression ratios and more power. I've got a small lead weight glued to the inside of both my motor bikes (Honda RVF400) tanks. May not do much but a couple of ex TT racers swear by it. Besides let's face it if we were all really guilty about the environment we would have brought bicycles.Edited by: RichieD76
 

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Absolutely. It was lead in fuel that protected the valves and acted as an upper cylinder lubricant. It stops valves burning but it was mega bad though!!!
 

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Went out this morning and the misses thought there was something wrong with the Tempest,didnt want to pull,rattled its butt off. NO MORE CHEAP FUEL.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I am starting to be convinced about this fuel argument. Damn nuisance as I normally load up a Sainsburys card which gets me 4% off so that knocks nearly 6p off a litre and I have just loaded the card by £400! Booger.
Back on the subject of the crap gearbox I checked the oil today after a shortish run and although the level was dead on, the oil was so thin almost like water. Is that right? I'm thinking about an oil change now even though I'm only half way towards the first service!
 

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Toyota must make some really bad diesel engines , cannot find any other manufacturer thatare having those sort of problems as Toyota,if the whole engine is filling with carbon then they have something very wrong. On my last 25k service the engine oil used was fully syntheticand the engine is fine and not noisey. I am using all sorts of diesel inc some supermarket fuels and as there is a set minimum spec for all fuels that has to bemanufactured to then I don't think the use of supermarket fuels will make much difference. They automaticly flushed the engine out on the service so should there be a problem this will go some way to sort it out however no dirt wasapparant on the service.They also renewed the brake fluid on the service, for £169it was not bad at all. If we were talking about fuel quality in Canada for instance then yes maybe problems there but not in UK.
 

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Let's just remember, you can purchase additives to put into fuel. Yes it's a pain and yes it is money. But if you'll be saving money on fuel and most will treat 5 or more tanks worth of diesel. but adding extras to fuel all the time can risk damaging your engine if not mixed

EXAMPLE.... As silly as it sounds and engine can "learn". I've had a couple motorbikes that I've run on high octane 105 petrol for use on tracks. After a few thousand miles they refused to start on ordinary petrol and on super unleaded 99 ron, there were so jerky it wasn't worth riding them. As strange as it sounds.
 

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Would not use fuel additives as they can cause all sorts of problems, there should be no need to go to these sorts of lengths in Uk . The only thing that I do at this time of year is to make sure that I am using petrol stations with a high turnover so I have winter grade diesel in my tank as it should be starting to be delivered soon. I have looked at different sites inc Which and I cannot find one positive reason for using the very expensive diesel in my Soul.
 

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Just a small section from Which


This 1.5-litre dCi direct-injection, turbocharged diesel engine is found in many current Renault and Nissan vehicles, with outputs varying from 68bhp to 106bhp ""“ we used the mid-powered 86bhp version for our tests.

It's equipped with a diesel particulate filter (DPF) to help remove harmful soot emissions from the exhaust ""“ this works very effectively. <div ="t1"> <table ="mini" summary="Renault Mégane 1.5 86bhp"><t> <tr> <th style="text-align: left;" ="hdr" rowSpan="1" colSpan="8">Renault Mégane 1.5 (86bhp)</th> </tr> <tr> <th style="text-align: left; vertical-align: bottom;" ="main" rowSpan="1" colSpan="1" scope="col">Fuel</th> <th style="text-align: center; vertical-align: bottom;" ="main" rowSpan="1" colSpan="1" scope="col">Cost per litre<sup>a</sup></th> <th style="text-align: center; vertical-align: bottom;" ="main" rowSpan="1" colSpan="1" scope="col">Tested economy</th> <th style="text-align: center; vertical-align: bottom;" ="main" rowSpan="1" colSpan="1" scope="col">12,000-mile fuel cost</th> <th style="text-align: center; vertical-align: bottom;" ="main" rowSpan="1" colSpan="1" scope="col">Measured Ron</th> <th style="text-align: center; vertical-align: bottom;" ="main" rowSpan="1" colSpan="1" scope="col">CO2 output</th> <th style="text-align: center; vertical-align: bottom;" ="main" rowSpan="1" colSpan="1" scope="col">Measured power output at front wheels)</th> <th style="text-align: center; vertical-align: bottom;" ="main" rowSpan="1" colSpan="1" scope="col">Power increase over standard fuel</th> </tr> </t><t style="vertical-align: top;"> <tr> <td style="text-align: left;" rowSpan="1" colSpan="1">BP Ultra-low sulphur diesel</td> <td style="text-align: center;" rowSpan="1" colSpan="1">£1.229</td> <td style="text-align: center;" rowSpan="1" colSpan="1">44.1 mpg</td> <td style="text-align: center;" rowSpan="1" colSpan="1">£1,522</td> <td style="text-align: center;" rowSpan="1" colSpan="1">54 Ron</td> <td style="text-align: center;" rowSpan="1" colSpan="1">173.1 g/km</td> <td style="text-align: center;" rowSpan="1" colSpan="1">73.4 bhp</td> <td style="text-align: center;" rowSpan="1" colSpan="1">n/a</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="text-align: left;" rowSpan="1" colSpan="1">BP Ultimate diesel</td> <td style="text-align: center;" rowSpan="1" colSpan="1">£1.294</td> <td style="text-align: center;" rowSpan="1" colSpan="1">44 mpg</td> <td style="text-align: center;" rowSpan="1" colSpan="1">£1,606</td> <td style="text-align: center;" rowSpan="1" colSpan="1">54.8 Ron</td> <td style="text-align: center;" rowSpan="1" colSpan="1">174.4 g/km</td> <td style="text-align: center;" rowSpan="1" colSpan="1">72.7 bhp</td> <td style="text-align: center;" rowSpan="1" colSpan="1">-1%</td> </tr> </t></table> <div ="tnote"> <div ="notehldr"> <h3 ="tntitle">Table notes</h3>
  1. <li ="listlettr">a Fuel prices stated are the average of four locations, at the time of purchase in May 2008



<h3>We found </h3>

BP's Ultimate diesel was slightly less economic and performed slightly less well than using BP's regular low-sulphur diesel.

And you would save £84 every 12,000 miles by using regular diesel.<h3>Which? verdict</h3>

Of all the super fuels we tested, BP Ultimate appears to be furthest from the marketing claims ""“ in this short-term study, at least.

So if you drive a diesel, you can save yourself £84 every 12,00 miles by just using regular diesel.<h2>Will a super fuel mean your car emits fewer pollutants?</h2>

We tested fuel economy, engine power output and CO2 emissions, and whether the cars emitted other harmful pollutants including:<ul ="standard">[*]CO (carbon monoxide) A poisonous, odourless gas. CO is a product of incomplete combustion and can be one measure of combustion efficiency.[*]NOx (nitrogen oxides) Smog-forming pollutants associated with breathing disorders. NOx is produced under the high temperatures found in the engine (up to 2,500ºC).[*]HC (hydrocarbons) Unburnt fuel and combustion by-products.[*]PM (particulate matter) ""˜Sooty' output said to aggravate breathing disorders, such as asthma, especially in urban areas. Diesel cars emit more PM than petrols.[/list]<h3>The results</h3>

.

As in our power and fuel economy tests, the benefits of BP Ultimate diesel weren't clear cut. It produced less CO and HC, but more NOx and particulate matter. The latter is possibly as a result of it having a higher sulphur content.

If you're worried about your car's emissions, it's better to drive less and more economically ""“ not to switch fuels.
 

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Dave, did you read the experts view on Which? I found this bit interesting

<h2>Is it worth filling up on super fuel every time ""“ or indeed ever?</h2>

If you have a car that you intend to keep for a long time, it could be worthwhile to always fill with a super fuel.

If
you aren't intending to keep a new car for its lifetime, it's possible
you might experience smoother running and additional power from
occasional use.

Older cars may also benefit from occasional use
(improved power and feel). Try a few tankfuls of ""˜super' to check for
any fuel economy benefit.

Older cars with poor service histories
that have consistently used poor-quality fuels may have accumulated
substantial deposits. The stronger detergents present in ""˜super' fuels
could free these deposits, improving engine efficiency.

These
freed deposits could end up causing unforeseen engine problems ""“ but
fuel companies would test for this, so any problems are unlikely.<h2>Are there specific problems that can be fixed with ""˜super' fuels?</h2>

The
high cetane content of ""˜super' diesels helps cold starting, and high
octane in ""˜super' petrol resists knocking (pre-ignition).

Good-quality
fuels can keep engine components clean, enabling the engine to maximise
power and minimise emissions. And the driver may notice reduced engine
noise.

I don't use the 'Superfuel' very often, but I do usually buy Shell fuel & with my old car after it only just passed the emissions test one year, I used to let the tank run really low before it's service and mot & fill it up with Super, and it always passed the emissions test with them getting lower the older the car got
 

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I thought there might be more Fussychick - thanks.
The defence rests.
 
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