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Oh, wait! Somebody already has! linky
Noooo!! Don't be doing that to an irreplaceable classic car. It's like ripping the sails and masts from the Cutty Sark and putting an electric motor in it, or taking the 4 lovely Merlin's out of the BBMF Lancaster and replacing them with 4 silent, boring and emotionally dead electric motors ... If you want the classic look without buggering up a classic, which means throwing away most of it by the look of it, build one from scratch.
Rant over. :giggle:
 

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MY21 Stonic GT-Line S ISG MHEV iMT
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Interesting discussion on here! don’t pretend to know anything about electric cars and I still drive a mild hybrid which most people reckon it’s the worst thing ever so…
I wonder though, isn’t the issue really the fact that EVs are in their infancy, compromised by a number of issues that still require more complex and robust solutions, and a charging network that in most countries is non existent?

What if… Tesla and the other pioneers of EVs, and governments, had taken the approach Shimano once took in the bike industry?

See Shimano now is the number one bike component company in the world. But not so long time ago they were the Kias of the world: popular in the low end segments but snubbed at by the elite of the peloton.

They then came up with a brilliant idea. Indexed shifters.
These, compared to the traditional friction shifters, were supposed to make the life of both a bike mechanic and a rider easier, and they did, when they were clean and worked well. But they had issues: grit in the system, tolerances, manufacturing defects meant they were good to start with but ended up needing replacing more frequently or just wouldn’t work properly after a while. Yet if only Shimano could have the opportunity to improve the system over time, they were a no brainer.

So Shimano essentially sold index shifters, technologically far superior to friction shifters, but plagued with teething issues, not to the elite athletes of the peloton, but to the people riding cheaper bikes: kids going to school, folks riding short distances to the shops, the low end basically.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they were sold at a loss to start with.

Long story short: they sold far many more units this way, and the system improved rapidly as a result, and the elite riders starting to demand that this technology was fitted to the top end of the market, for the racers in the Tour de France could immediately see the benefit.

Now Shimano not only is the king of bike components, but index shifting is the only possible way to get good fast reliable shifting on a bicycle, and has evolved to the point we now have electronic shifters.

Maybe electric cars should have been small cars, with small battery capacity but crucially, incredibly cheap. So cheap, it would have been a no brainer for the millions of people who travel ‘less than 5miles’ every day! These people can’t and don’t want to spend a lot of money. If the EV had been a reasonable size, but so cheap that even those on minimum wage could afford (just like they can afford a 10 year old car now), would you even see a ICE car today?

When I was a young kid the first electric car in Italy made its appearance: a fiat panda. It was ugly and cheaply built and had terrible range, but it was expensive. So expensive, you would only buy it if you were rich and wanted to be seen ‘green’. That was so ridiculous, it basically got axed.
 
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Interesting discussion on here! don’t pretend to know anything about electric cars and I still drive a mild hybrid which most people reckon it’s the worst thing ever so…
I wonder though, isn’t the issue really the fact that EVs are in their infancy, compromised by a number of issues that still require more complex and robust solutions, and a charging network that in most countries is non existent?

What if… Tesla and the other pioneers of EVs, and governments, had taken the approach Shimano once took in the bike industry?

See Shimano now is the number one bike component company in the world. But not so long time ago they were the Kias of the world: popular in the low end segments but snubbed at by the elite of the peloton.

They then came up with a brilliant idea. Indexed shifters.
These, compared to the traditional friction shifters, were supposed to make the life of both a bike mechanic and a rider easier, and they did, when they were clean and worked well. But they had issues: grit in the system, tolerances, manufacturing defects meant they were good to start with but ended up needing replacing more frequently or just wouldn’t work properly after a while. Yet if only Shimano could have the opportunity to improve the system over time, they were a no brainer.

So Shimano essentially sold index shifters, technologically far superior to friction shifters, but plagued with teething issues, not to the elite athletes of the peloton, but to the people riding cheaper bikes: kids going to school, folks riding short distances to the shops, the low end basically.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they were sold at a loss to start with.

Long story short: they sold far many more units this way, and the system improved rapidly as a result, and the elite riders starting to demand that this technology was fitted to the top end of the market, for the racers in the Tour de France could immediately see the benefit.

Now Shimano not only is the king of bike components, but index shifting is the only possible way to get good fast reliable shifting on a bicycle, and has evolved to the point we now have electronic shifters.

Maybe electric cars should have been small cars, with small battery capacity but crucially, incredibly cheap. So cheap, it would have been a no brainer for the millions of people who travel ‘less than 5miles’ every day! These people can’t and don’t want to spend a lot of money. If the EV had been a reasonable size, but so cheap that even those on minimum wage could afford (just like they can afford a 10 year old car now), would you even see a ICE car today?

When I was a young kid the first electric car in Italy made its appearance: a fiat panda. It was ugly and cheaply built and had terrible range, but it was expensive. So expensive, you would only buy it if you were rich and wanted to be seen ‘green’. That was so ridiculous, it basically got axed.
Isn't that exactly what Tesla already do

This may be somewhat anecdotal, and i don't have the links or facts to back it up, but i was under the impression that most (if not all) Teslas are sold at a loss, that is to say, they cost more more to manufacture than they sell for, the only reason they are profitable is in part to Government funding, but mainly by selling "Carbon Credits" to large multinational industrial scale polluters

Yet still, they are outside what most folk would consider a reasonably priced car

EDIT: I wasn't just imagining it
 

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MY21 Stonic GT-Line S ISG MHEV iMT
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Isn't that exactly what Tesla already do

This may be somewhat anecdotal, and i don't have the links or facts to back it up, but i was under the impression that most (if not all) Teslas are sold at a loss, that is to say, they cost more more to manufacture than they sell for, the only reason they are profitable is in part to Government funding, but mainly by selling "Carbon Credits" to large multinational industrial scale polluters

Yet still, they are outside what most folk would consider a reasonably priced car

EDIT: I wasn't just imagining it
They might be sold at a loss. But they aren’t cheap. And that means millions more people can’t afford them. Teslas are still aiming at people concerned about 0-60

To make my point a little clearer: imagine a Mazda MX-30, sold for £5000. Brand new.
 

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They might be sold at a loss. But they aren’t cheap. And that means millions more people can’t afford them. Teslas are still aiming at people concerned about 0-60
Yes, very much so, and that is the biggest deal breaker for my with BEV, the cost of the batteries

Pound for pound when compared to an ICE equivelent, the motor in a BEV will cost massively less than the equivelent ICE engine (only 1 moving part), no gearbox required, far simpler drivetrain and control system, both still require a body, 4 wheels and suspension etc, so the difference in cost primarily comes down to the battery pack, and i know i keep banging on about it, but the 2nd hand car market, or more specifically the depreciation will fall off a cliff when the batteries have run their course, as they will not be economically viable to replace them

I can't see in 15-20 years time that anyone will be running "classic EV's" like we do now with classic ICE vehicles, and arguably the greenest vehicles to produce, are the ones with the greatest life span
 

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One thing with Tesla. They run their own charging stations, which no other EV producer does. So if every other EV manufacture did the same & to the same scale/speeds then the remote charging would not be a issue.
Also charging pads in the road is now proven & running at 50kW.

Of course all this comes at a cost & the early adaptor's have had a great deal. Now it's starting to be payback time as sales go up and a lot of the problems now start to rear their head.. Such as waiting for charging.
One thing to queue for ICE fuel, but even a EV6 in prime charging takes 18 mins from 20 to 80% get 3 of them waiting and that's a hour wait.

But why a gearbox in a EV.. That's just adding weight to give the driver something they do not need & remove one of the good points of a EV. A nice flat linear power curve all the way to the top.
 

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And therein lies the rub, home charging is all well and good if you have off street parking, doesn't work quite so well if you live on a terraced street/flat/apartment, or only room to park one car on your driveway
I can't really dispute "doesn't work quite so well" , but I did say that I don't have off-street parking and I cope just fine. I spent about 20 years of my working life living in a flat with no private parking. For the last 15 years I've been in a terrace with no off-street parking (fronts of houses are too close to pavement for anyone on our street to have achieved off-street).
I don't think room for only one car should be a problem. How many households have two cars and do such a high mileage as to need filling up every night?

Back to my own experience of depending on public charging: I can charge and shop. I can drop the car on a slow public charger a walk from my home. It would be nice if the lamppost nearest my home was fitted with a charge point, but it isn't, but maybe one day... Being able to charge at home is a big boon for sure. Not being able to charge at home probably means that "coping" away from home is less of a shock for me than for the EV driver who nearly always charges at home and pootles around locally and might get nervous of a long journey and "filling up". I've had the practice with those public charge-points. There are very pissy differences in the different charge-point operators for sure. But is a Tesco petrol pump user interface the same as a BP, or as Shell or Asda. Do you get your loyalty card out as well as pay by phone? It's a form of conservation of complexity: complexity is always there, it just gets shuffled around. I value the fact that when charging at rapid charge points there's usually a "tethered" cable, like the petrol pipe, but when you go to the slow public charge points you need to get your own cable out - That's a faff that I would like to do away with.

I fairly regularly need to drive to near Exeter from London. I would generally leave London having charged to near 100%, so I can do the 3 hour journey in the evening, say from 8pm to 11pm. I can get there without a stop (I'll still have about 50 miles range on arrival). Where I stay there isn't convenient charging, so it is more likely that I will set off without enough charge to complete the journey. If I leave on a Sunday at 5pm to 7pm I really don't resent the break on a 3 hour journey to get a coffee and probably a snack meal. In that time I can easily get enough charge to get me home.
So I can make it work - because I choose to make it work.
Other people can choose otherwise.

I agree that the charging time can get in the way, but it doesn't have to.
Remember: nobody gets to fill up with petrol at home, so without it you are not so lucky, but not so different to the petrol status quo.
 

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One thing that could come out of the whole EV change is the limited range means people have to stop & have a break. So none of the tried drivers who have been going for hours on end (just because the tank is not empty) rather than stopping for a rest break to get some fresh air.
 
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The 20% 80% stuff is the standard for all lithium batteries I think, they say the same thing about mobile phones but I still charge mine overnight 🙄

I think it's also possible that EV will be another diesel situation, we are all told to go to an alternative fuel to save the planet only to be told some years on that this is now destroying the planet and we need to move to something else, hydrogen next time I suspect.
My latest mobile has an option to not let the charge go beyond 85%, which is a good idea, there's a Youtuber with a Tesla who religiously keeps it between 20 & 80% and he's got over 150k on the clock now, original batteries, though down a little on range but not massively (7% I think it is).

With you on the diesel thing.

Vince
 

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I still stand by my analysis.
You want a revolution? Get the support of the people.
Make a decent electric car that is half the price of a standard ICE.
Get the government to pull their finger out if necessary.
Give them what they need at a price they can’t refuse: 68% of trips are under 5 miles. WTF i cycled 6 times that distance every day and worked my ass off too for 4 years in the City. What the hell do these people do that they need to cover that distance in a Range Rover? Sorry but this is why when Elon musk pulls out green statements I don’t believe any of it …
 

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... and i know i keep banging on about it, but the 2nd hand car market, or more specifically the depreciation will fall off a cliff when the batteries have run their course, as they will not be economically viable to replace them
I can't see in 15-20 years time that anyone will be running "classic EV's" like we do now with classic ICE vehicles, and arguably the greenest vehicles to produce, are the ones with the greatest life span
Er, no. There are already 2nd hand EVs with replacement batteries with higher capacities which are costing less than the original owing to the price falls of battery manufacture.
On top of that, the battery lifetime is an exaggerated urban myth built on some very early examples.
Youtube link - Will EV battery packs last as long as the car itself?

I would be concerned that ICE will tumble in value for factors that we can guess at (but may not come to pass) e.g. with EV prices dropping and more uptake, the positive vibes and diminishing scares will make adoption faster, people will be choosing EV over gears, noise, oil and filling stations; there are possible tax changes to keep using the stick to hit carbon targets (and because of shortfalls of tax revenue for other reasons and higher expenditure). Public opinion on EV or ICE isn't strong right now, but I think that within a decade there will be an increasing proportion of the public who will be frowning on new ICE domestic cars, particularly if the registration looks recent. Would I want to buy an ICE in 2027, despite the fact that it would still be legal to sell it... I don't think so...
 

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@fenegroni
Many people can't walk that far. My Mrs is lucky to manage 50 yards. I used to love cycling as a kid, but it was flat there. Now we live in a area with a lot of hill's & I would be a danger to both myself & other road users being lucky to even make walking pace up hill on a bike..
So a small car does not cut it with us as we can not get a mobility scooter or wheelchair in.
 

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@fenegroni
Many people can't walk that far. My Mrs is lucky to manage 50 yards. I used to love cycling as a kid, but it was flat there. Now we live in a area with a lot of hill's & I would be a danger to both myself & other road users being lucky to even make walking pace up hill on a bike..
So a small car does not cut it with us as we can not get a mobility scooter or wheelchair in.
I’m really sorry to hear about your situation. But might I point out that yours is not a common situation and the vast majority of people do not have an issue with short journeys on foot or by bike.

What I was trying to say and failed to I guess, is that if the electric revolution had started by solving the day to day mobility needs of the cast majority of people, then it would have happened a lot quicker. But we are not in the business of saving the planet by any stretch of imagination anyway, we are just trying to make money after all. Right?

most journeys by the greatest majority of people do not require a range of autonomy above what a Mazda mx-30 is capable of.

You have additional transportation needs. And you have every right to want the right tool for the job. Doesn’t mean everyone else does.

And don’t get me wrong. I too sometimes drive the car somewhere if I have to ferry the kids or the family places. I am certainly not going to become a martyr for humanity.

But having witnessed the reality of perfectly healthy and reasonable people using the car to ferry their one teenage child one mile down the road to school ‘because it’s a little rainy today’. I know we have a bigger problem in our hands.
 
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But having witnessed the reality of perfectly healthy and reasonable people using the car to ferry their one teenage child one mile down the road to school ‘because it’s a little rainy today’. I know we have a bigger problem in our hands.
Totally agree with you. Far too many people have become lazy. Which then leads to health issues.

As someone with dogs. Something we are well aware of is:

Never walk your dog in the heat as they may die. But I like to add on, No human ever died walking their dog in the rain.

It amazing the number of people I see on a daily basis walking their dogs. Yet 1st sign of rain or snow, they are nowhere to be seen.
 
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Totally agree with you. Far too many people have become lazy. Which then leads to health issues.

As someone with dogs. Something we are well aware of is:

Never walk your dog in the heat as they may die. But I like to add on, No human ever died walking their dog in the rain.

It amazing the number of people I see on a daily basis walking their dogs. Yet 1st sign of rain or snow, they are nowhere to be seen.
All dogs are not equal! I challenge you to get ours out in the rain. Maybe in the old days when she could still be tricked quite easily... 😁

Back to the topic in general... I still find some of the scenarios, described by bev owners themselves, very unappealing. The decision not to change yet is still clear cut for me. I left planning my route in the 90's, with my last AA yellow map book. I like being able to run to 30miles left and know there's probably 30 places to refill within range. Should be in and out in minutes if they have pay at pump.

That's now, and personally I like things that go bang lots of times a minute. Give me a two stroke in a garage over theatre tickets any day. On the other hand, I recommend electric to anyone who can make it work for them. I'll give it a few more years and see where we are.
 

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That's now, and personally I like things that go bang lots of times a minute. Give me a two stroke in a garage over theatre tickets any day. On the other hand, I recommend electric to anyone who can make it work for them. I'll give it a few more years and see where we are.
Haha, a man after my own heart 🏍🏍🏍

I also couldn'rt agree more, and the more folk who adopt BEV's will hopefully allow us "fossils" to contiune running out the remaining fossil fuels left ;)

I just don't like the fact the general public are being forced into adoption, when the likes of trains/busses/HGV's seem to be exempt, i mean surely Trains would be the easist thing in the world to electrify across the board
 

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... i mean surely Trains would be the easist thing in the world to electrify across the board
Wholeheartedly agree.
A government which pulls the plug on electrification of rail lines clearly isn't living up to it's words.
"World class" - my rear!

Media is so shallow. They take the bait for every press junket for diddly squat events that are offered as good news (e.g. the re-opening of a relatively short stretch of line) and give it about as much prominence as a cancellation of something which you would have thought was an essential upgrade. The only thing which has kept HS2 in the news is that it provides a feeding frenzy for the excessively high proportion of political commentators to talk politics about incessantly. Over a couple of decades news seems to have turned into a politics show. Where did the industry, commerce, health, welfare, science correspondents go? The people who knew their topic and could report on it dispassionately - rather than the Oxbridge PPE graduates who enjoy reporting on the tittle-tattle and the sparring success of their Oxbridge PPE graduate politicians and assistants!
 
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