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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Did anyone else see this program on Monday evening?
There were some very interesting thing on it. Now I'm not going in to the full details about things If you want all the details watch the program on catch up.

The first thing they discussed was emissions of hybrid cars. Apparently all hybrid cars emit more Volatile Organic Compounds (VOC) than a new standard diesel car.
Another thing was that manufactures recommend that you use only between 20 - 80% of your battery. On the program they used an MG SUV. It's advertised mileage is 160 miles on a full charge. They tested the car using the recommended 20-80% charge. It was only able to do 70 miles. That's 90 miles less.
They also mentioned charging and that there is no standardisation not just with the plug adaptors also the way payment is made. Some can be made with a card and some have to have an app. Another worrying thing is that when filming the program 5.2% of the charging points weren't working. That doesn't sound too bad but according to Zap Map there are 17422 charging points in the UK, that makes 905 were not working.
Also they mentioned older EVs. They had 9 year old Nissan Leaf. The mileage on a full charge when new was 109 miles. On this 9 year old one on a 80% charge it said it could do 38 miles. In fact they only managed 18 before dropping below 20%. Ok there has been improvements made in the last 10 years but I don't think I would be look at a seconded hand one for awhile.

I seem to be against EVs, I'm not I would love one. But for someone who regularly does a 300 mile round trip the mileage has to be increased and the charging times faster before I'll be buying on.
 

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@Chrispy1 I am with you, under different circumstances I would convert to electric. What stops me is we wouldn't be able to tow our caravan, and even if we could we wouldn't be able to do much distance. Also I am not completely sold on the 'green' credentials, especially obtaining the rare metals required for these machines.
Having said that, electric vehicles are, in real terms, in their infancy, I am convinced as technology moves on better systems will be developed and improve these vehicle. My other worry is that I feel like we are being led down a norrow path, like when diesel engines were going to save us. There are other technologies out there like synthetic fuels for example, so I think it will be a waiting game for me. And in any case I am of an age where excitement isn't good for me (apparently), so by the time internal combustion engines are banned I may have my wings. 馃懠
 

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Did anyone else see this program on Monday evening?
There were some very interesting thing on it. Now I'm not going in to the full details about things If you want all the details watch the program on catch up.

The first thing they discussed was emissions of hybrid cars. Apparently all hybrid cars emit more Volatile Organic Compounds (VOC) than a new standard diesel car.
Another thing was that manufactures recommend that you use only between 20 - 80% of your battery. On the program they used an MG SUV. It's advertised mileage is 160 miles on a full charge. They tested the car using the recommended 20-80% charge. It was only able to do 70 miles. That's 90 miles less.
They also mentioned charging and that there is no standardisation not just with the plug adaptors also the way payment is made. Some can be made with a card and some have to have an app. Another worrying thing is that when filming the program 5.2% of the charging points weren't working. That doesn't sound too bad but according to Zap Map there are 17422 charging points in the UK, that makes 905 were not working.
Also they mentioned older EVs. They had 9 year old Nissan Leaf. The mileage on a full charge when new was 109 miles. On this 9 year old one on a 80% charge it said it could do 38 miles. In fact they only managed 18 before dropping below 20%. Ok there has been improvements made in the last 10 years but I don't think I would be look at a seconded hand one for awhile.

I seem to be against EVs, I'm not I would love one. But for someone who regularly does a 300 mile round trip the mileage has to be increased and the charging times faster before I'll be buying on.
Careful, you'll be labelled a luddite with an anti-ev agenda! 馃榿

For what's it worth, I agree, but it's still a maturing situation. Look how long it took to standardise charging plugs on phones!
 

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Battery tech is improving, and older EVs had real issues. Charging is the biggest issue here, I could handle an EV6 as a replacement for my Sorento but the reality is that waiting 2 hours for a 40min charge is very different than waiting 40-50 mins for charging whilst at a services.

The bigger concern to me is the VOCs, so I shall watch the programme.

I've been concerned for a while regarding the anti-diesel lobby too as the Euro-6 diesels have none of the concerns reported about earlier diesels.

We need a sensible discussion about things like this, as EVs do not suit everyone and if the PHEVs are worse for emissions then that puts families like us who have bought one in a compromised position too.
 

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There were some very interesting thing on it.
Thanks for that. 'Chrispy1'. Clearly, the case for electric vehicles isn't quite as wonderful as the general public has been led to believe. Nonetheless, there can be no doubt that we will be (rightly, I guess) coerced into buying into what is likely to become shortly, the only game in town.

While I'm sure that hydrogen fuel cells will have a major part to play in the future, for the time being, all the major car manufacturers are channeling most of their efforts into battery electric vehicles, largely eschewing fossil-fuel power though providing the halfway-house hybrid and PHEV for those who don't want or can't afford the full-blown BEVs.

I'm shocked about the emissions to which the programme drew attention although I don't know where VOCs figure, and to what extent, in the current emissions regulations.

2nd-hand electric cars seem rather unattractive given the much-reduced range and increased charging costs that they will inevitably suffer so perhaps something needs to happen with regard to battery replacement in older vehicles. For the foreseeable future, I'm inclined to stick with my 5-year old Euro 6 diesel which has served me very well to date.
 
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i believe all new build houses will have a charging point so thats good ! but most houses will have 2 to 3 cars associated with them ie spouse or offspring So there is still a huge amount of infrastructure work to be done. |hopefully you will be able to get a plug adaptor 3 in to 1 ?
 

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Blimey, as the owner and driver of a BEV and PHEV, the idea that you only use between 20 and 80 percent of your battery because the manufacturers recommend that is complete tosh. No manufacturer recommends only using 20-80 per cent of the battery. they may say to not keep a battery charged at 100 percent for along time without using it and to charge to 80 percent normally to hep battery health but that is very different op saying only use 20 -80 percent. Also, the Nissan Leah gen1 was affected by poorer battery management than modern evs and so does (as is well known) suffer from battery degradation. However, there is no newer ev (including the newer Leaf) that suffers from this to anything like the same extent.

As fro standardisation of charging plugs, then they really don't have a clue. There are only to types of plugs that are relevant and indeed, are the only two types used - Chademo and CCS (with a type 2 charger as part of this). No ev's on sale use anything except these two types of charger and Chademo is only on certain models. (Mainly Zoe's).

Once again, poor reporting designed to make Ev's look like a bad choice. Only thing that really doesn't make sense with ev's at the moment is towing. It does reduce range enormously and that I am sure is something that will be looked at in the next few years. Another click bait TV show I am afraid.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
A here is what they say on the MG car site
How to make your car battery last longer
There are several tips that you can use to try and increase your electric car battery life:
  • Charge the electric car battery between 20%-80% - The lifespan of the battery pack often depends on how much it鈥檚 charged. You can extend the life of the batteries by only charging them between 20% and 80% and trying not to let them drop below 50% too often. Going beyond these limits can increase the rate that the battery deteriorates over time.
  • Avoid overcharging - Overcharging can cause chemical changes inside the battery itself, which again could negatively affect how efficiently it can store energy. Ultimately, you are looking to reduce the number of charging cycles that your battery goes through in its lifetime.
  • Reduce exposure to extreme temperatures - Extreme cold or heat can negatively affect your car鈥檚 battery.
 

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A here is what they say on the MG car site
How to make your car battery last longer
There are several tips that you can use to try and increase your electric car battery life:
  • Charge the electric car battery between 20%-80% - The lifespan of the battery pack often depends on how much it鈥檚 charged. You can extend the life of the batteries by only charging them between 20% and 80% and trying not to let them drop below 50% too often. Going beyond these limits can increase the rate that the battery deteriorates over time.
  • Avoid overcharging - Overcharging can cause chemical changes inside the battery itself, which again could negatively affect how efficiently it can store energy. Ultimately, you are looking to reduce the number of charging cycles that your battery goes through in its lifetime.
  • Reduce exposure to extreme temperatures - Extreme cold or heat can negatively affect your car鈥檚 battery.
Geee! - sounds like back to the days of cordless power tools and Nickle Cadmium batteries :)

Just how, for a car, can you " Reduce exposure to extreme temperatures" not use it in winter and keep it at home with a fleece and hot water bottle?
 

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Moved to general section as not dealer related.

While I would love a EV. The maths do not stack up for my annual mileage to cover the extra costs.

If you really want to see what EV's can do then check out Bj酶rn Nyland on U-Tube. As he lives in Norway. he has a good take on weather and usage. Also how he has seen a change over the last 2 years at charging points. Where before he would often be the only one, now he often has to wait. And Norway is pretty well endowed with charging points.

This video shows how not to, but what many new EV owners will do & how it effect's' charging etc.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Moved to general section as not dealer related.

While I would love a EV. The maths do not stack up for my annual mileage to cover the extra costs.

If you really want to see what EV's can do then check out Bj酶rn Nyland on U-Tube. As he lives in Norway. he has a good take on weather and usage. Also how he has seen a change over the last 2 years at charging points. Where before he would often be the only one, now he often has to wait. And Norway is pretty well endowed with charging points.

This video shows how not to, but what many new EV owners will do & how it effect's' charging etc.
That is a Tesla he has and there are always loads of their chargers at service stations and in Norway. Over here your just has likely to find a petrol car parked on a charging bay.
 

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They still get it over there.
His point in the video is that EV drivers need to forget about driving a ICE & learn how to drive a EV to get the best out of it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
They still get it over there.
His point in the video is that EV drivers need to forget about driving a ICE & learn how to drive a EV to get the best out of it.
That's the problem. If you have an over 300 mile trip you don't want the worry of how far will I get before I need to charge and how long will it take to charge, will the charging point be working or will there be others already charging and will I have to wait long?
 

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The 20% 80% stuff is the standard for all lithium batteries I think, they say the same thing about mobile phones but I still charge mine overnight 馃檮

I think it's also possible that EV will be another diesel situation, we are all told to go to an alternative fuel to save the planet only to be told some years on that this is now destroying the planet and we need to move to something else, hydrogen next time I suspect.
 

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....... Look how long it took to standardise charging plugs on phones!
I didn't think they had standardised yet, certainly not Apple anyway, and even Motorola still sell phones with USB B charging ports

Anyway, another good program i watched recently was the Guy Martin show about trying to build the worlds fastest BEV

As part of the show he tried to drive from Grimsby to John O'Groats in an electic vehicle, in a reasonable time scale (ie, using fast chargers), turned out it cost him more to charge the cars using fast chargers than it would have to driven a diesel car the same distance, and still took nearly twice as long to do it

As mentioned above though, the biggest problem for me is going to be the 2nd hand car market, as i have only ever bought 1 car younger than 10 years old (my current ProCeed GT), and as is clearly evident in BEV, the battery makes up the lions share of the cars costs (compared to silimar ICE vehicle), so what will become of the 10+ year old BEV's when the battery needs replacing, they simply will not be economically viable to the majority of the poupulation who can only afford 2nd hand vehicles
 

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Blimey, as the owner and driver of a BEV and PHEV, the idea that you only use between 20 and 80 percent of your battery because the manufacturers recommend that is complete tosh. No manufacturer recommends only using 20-80 per cent of the battery. they may say to not keep a battery charged at 100 percent for along time without using it and to charge to 80 percent normally to hep battery health but that is very different op saying only use 20 -80 percent. Also, the Nissan Leah gen1 was affected by poorer battery management than modern evs and so does (as is well known) suffer from battery degradation. However, there is no newer ev (including the newer Leaf) that suffers from this to anything like the same extent.

As fro standardisation of charging plugs, then they really don't have a clue. There are only to types of plugs that are relevant and indeed, are the only two types used - Chademo and CCS (with a type 2 charger as part of this). No ev's on sale use anything except these two types of charger and Chademo is only on certain models. (Mainly Zoe's).

Once again, poor reporting designed to make Ev's look like a bad choice. Only thing that really doesn't make sense with ev's at the moment is towing. It does reduce range enormously and that I am sure is something that will be looked at in the next few years. Another click bait TV show I am afraid.
Yep - I reckon @Gailjon has hit the nail on the head - It's current affairs doing what it loves to do, go for a story and dig for some bad news to make it a bit more sensational, good news or "nothing to see here" doesn't get audiences. Any trails or preview write-ups will be sure to drag in any viewer seeking some "confirmation bias". I haven't seen the programme (yet), I guess I should, but if they are so off-mark about plugs and usable battery capacity it doesn't look good! Air-cooled batteries were a flawed idea, even in Britain where we don't get Californian temperatures - I believe that was what hurt the early Leafs.... and the fact that there's been a lot of progress with batteries, motors and control systems since.

I think most BEV owners would agree that public charging is something that you can't ignore. I'm not someone with home charging, so I am more aware of that than people with off-street home charging, I know where I can charge locally and I make the effort to find out where I can likely charge on a long journey. At the moment you just have to be prepared to plan ahead, but I'm not a travelling salesman or a maintenance engineer with a nationwide "patch", so I don't have the problem of being on the road with no idea of where my next fuel stop will be. I just do what most drivers do: I do some local travelling, I have a couple of routes that get used say 10 times a year which are several hundred miles and I know well. Perhaps every month or two I might go somewhere unfamiliar (often they are within my 260 mile range anyway, so I just make sure to set off with 100%).
I didn't choose the car for pure economics, nor did we pick it because we are some sort of martyrs to green living. The car was great to drive and had the right mix of accommodation for two of us plus too much luggage. The last cars we had (Focus & Mini) were kept for 21 & 15 years respectively, so we didn't really want the next car to be an ICE bought in the last hurrah decade of ICE.
I don't regret the choice at all - The extra 10 minutes of looking at Zap Map in the days before an unfamiliar journey are easily worthwhile for all the other positives of the pleasant driving experience: no gears, always torque, regular smiles on our faces!

The pollution aspects of hybrids are interesting, but with so many other glaring errors in the programme's content it doesn't seem good, that's a shame really because I thought of Dispatches as a pretty good "brand".

As a pure BEV owner/driver I'm very sceptical of all of the hybrid combinations. I think the manufacturers are trying to have their cake and eat it in so many ways (and we know that doesn't work). I understand that electrically handling the stop/start motoring and slow speed aids efficiency but I hate the doubling of complexity and reduction of all of the positives: the battery is smaller (so can't accept as much regen or carry you as far), the electric motor and engine are smaller so performance is less and managing the drive to the wheels more complex. Cynically I see several of the types of hybrid as being 20% about a genuine engineering attempt to solve a problem and 80% about making the potential customer feel safer making a smaller leap. In the end the capability to put that "smile on my face" (by 200bhp) has been thrown away by engineering compromise.

I know there are some patterns of use in some parts of the country where a 260 mile range is not good enough. I also recognise that 260 miles range may come at too high a price at present.
...Just saying that there are a lot of people who could but don't choose to buy electric - I also think that if they actually tried some models rather than carping and clinging onto negative reports they might decide that the nuisance of looking at Zap-Map before a trip was worth it. I do, but that's me. It's not for everyone, but people ought to try before dismissing.

Only 3 weeks ago I pulled-in at a charger, a lone charger in a car park when I was about 50 miles from my destination. I just wanted to try it. It was a failure. The charger seemed not to recognise my car on the CCS cable for a rapid charge. It was only a speculative stop, to possibly spend 10 minutes pushing a few kWh into the battery and see if that "Swarco" charger was any good. I carried on to my destination, no problem, just needed to refuel somewhere else later. I know the locations of very reliable Instavolt chargers with easy contactless payment. It's not as easy as the current petrol situation which requires little thought, there's always something nearby (if you aren't fussy about price). I remember the days of needing to be careful on Sundays in rural locations when old style petrol garages weren't always open. Even today (for me last year), you might want to have looked to see where the nearest Tesco or Asda 24/7 petrol can be found rather than being fleeced on a motorway service station. To some extent there's always complexity, it's just a question of what you take in your stride. IMHO ;-)

@iooi pointed to Youtube videos by Bj酶rn Nyland who has tested many different cars in cold Norwegian weather, the sort they routinely have and we only occasionally experience. I thought I'd add this guy, a Brit who lives in Finland and runs trips to the arctic circle to view the northern lights. He's a Kia owner, but has tested other cars. He did some tests in -35 and -40deg C - That pretty much put my mind at rest about having to keep an EV on the street in the UK. Youtube Finland Tony
You may find the 'L' key useful to skip through the rambling a bit - He's as long on the talking as I am on the typing :)
 

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Thanks for the Finland Tony. Will have a look at that tonight. (y)
 

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Well my charging pattern so far has been to run down to between 20-40% then charge to around 80% and 100% once a month. I admit I haven't done any really long trips yet, beyond the car's range, but I would guess a lot of current drivers would follow a similar pattern of use as myself and if having to rely on public charging that is where the worries emanate from. Home charging no problem. Time for the infrastructure to get it's act together.
 

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Thanks for the Finland Tony. Will have a look at that tonight. (y)
So driving a EV in -40... Insane. Interesting that the range was showing @ 180 miles which I would have thought was fantastic given the temps over a long time.
 
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I dipped into Bj酶rn's live feed of his 1000km in the EV6. Should I use some of my remaining charge to warm the battery?Jeez, what a faff.

As it stands, I only be interested when an BEV comes with a manual gearbox, is closer to 1000kg than 2000kg, has two doors and isn't an SUV...

Oh, wait! Somebody already has! linky
 
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