[bl665]

Hey all. Hope everyone is well. I have some serious problems going and before taking my vehicle to the dealership I would really hope for some kia owner experience haha

My 2015 rio recently has been making A LOT of chatter at the top end and I (being a certified mechanic) decided to do the work myself and sent the head to a machine shop. I went ahead and basically ordered all new parts for the timing chain, tensioner, oil control valves, oil pump, You name It I got it. Half the reason I bought this vehicle is because parts were cheap and it is easy to work on. Unfortunately when you have to take the timing cover off three times to fix something that never gets fixed it becomes VERY frustrating.

Going back to the noise. I originally thought Oh no big deal maybe the chain tensioner took a crap and it needed to be replaced. After all this work and parts I am finding out that that is not the issue. I am also finding out that The issue is going to something much more mysterious.

Things Ive done to resolve the issue:

Replace chain, chain tensioner(3 different ones), both intake and exhaust sprockets. Both oil control valves. I've tried a few different oil filters. I've replaced oil pump. I've dropped the pan and cleaned the pickup tube. I've gone through the oil galleys with compressed air to see if there is any blockage (I may have missed some spots but the ones going to the tensioner and oil control valves are very clear)

I am at a loss. One thing I notice is that with chain installed. When you turn over the motor by hand some spots the chain will have a lot of slack in it between the two sprockets. I have NEVER seen that on an engine lol I know this is a hydraulic tensioner. So If I am getting oil everywhere and no blockage I should have a tight chain.

Note that at idle I have no noise but when i Get to 2500 RPM and higher is when the ratlling noise kicks in.


If anyone can help here it would be GREATLY appreciated the car has been down for 2 months and I desperatley need it back on the road.

Cheers All

 

[Jack Daniels]

I'm am no expert in this area.
is there also a return spring on the tensioner? if so has it also been replaced.
Is the oil viscosity according to the user manual, to obtain the correct pressure for the hyd. tensioner?

When you turn over the motor by hand some spots the chain will have a lot of slack in it between the two sprockets.

do you mean the two camshaft sprockets?
Is this when you compare two different sections of chain and the motor is exactly the same place in the combustion cycle?

 

[Indalo]

I (being a certified mechanic) decided to do the work myself and sent the head to a machine shop.

Welcome to the forum, 'bl665'.

I'm afraid that I can't offer any help other than to ask, as in post #2, which oil you are using? What made you send the head to a machine shop? I don't understand that unless you identified a problem there but clearly, the 'clatter' you have experienced doesn't emanate from the head.

Given all that you have replaced, I have to ask, are you certain that the 'clatter' is from inside the timing cover?

On a separate note, as you display a US flag and have opted to post in a UK-based forum, does it follow that there are no KIA forums in the USA?

 

[xroads]

Not familiar with GDI, but will ask anyway.

Does it have variable valve timing (Kia's CVVT system)? If so I assume it's hydraulic operated by a solenoid?
Check solenoid is working, and if it has a mini oil filter gauze, check that's clean. My experience with vvti has been on Toyota's, so may not be relevant.

 

[Back again]

My 2015 rio

Didn't think they did a 1.6 GDi Rio in 2015. Pretty sure the 1.4 was the biggest engine sold in the UK.

 

[mr.macspot]

The OP is in the United States of America. They may be better served posting this query in Kia-Forums.com which is more North American biased.

 

[bl665]

I'm am no expert in this area.
is there also a return spring on the tensioner? if so has it also been replaced.

The only spring here is inside the tensioner and each tensioner I have gotten came with a new spring.

Is the oil viscosity according to the user manual, to obtain the correct pressure for the hyd. tensioner? Yes I have always used either 5-20 or 0-20 synthetic. The car now has about 96,000 on it.


do you mean the two camshaft sprockets?
Is this when you compare two different sections of chain and the motor is exactly the same place in the combustion cycle?

 

[bl665]

The reason sending to machine shop was a few different reasons. The main one was that there was excessive build up of carbon on the valves from the DI. The fuel injectors also had excessive build up on the tips which was causing uneven spraying. I also had p0420 which was caused by an inefficient converter. It looked like a whole mountain was taken away when you looked inside converter. Lol

needless to say it had to come off anyways and Usually when I do this to the cars I have I go ahead and replace everything. Seems I bit off to much here

yes this does have the cvvt system. I have even replaced the solenoids your talking about that control oil flow. Still to no avail. I think I will take a video and post so you can hear the noise. I can promise the noise is from the top.

My apologies I thought this was based on US. This is actually the first Kia forum that popped up on google.

 

[xroads]

Does your oil control valve get 0v/12v at idle/ high revs? If not maybe a blown MOSFET in ECU.
Your swap out list is long! Need to diagnose more, swapout less.

 

[bl665]

Does your oil control valve get 0v/12v at idle/ high revs? If not maybe a blown MOSFET in ECU.
Your swap out list is long! Need to diagnose more, swapout less.

Great thought ! I got home tonight and conducted a test. I went ahead and spliced each color wire from the solenoids which I'm pretty sure is the signal side. Since I dont have a helper i had to run a wire from that splice to the inside of the car where I could hold the multi meter and step on the gas. I grounded the black wire to a main ground group in the car.

I received this:

When Idling. Each solenoid held about 13.5 v upon acceleration it dropped down to around 7-8v. It seems this would be backwards to me as you would want more oil pressure on acceleration than on idling. Its also possible I'm getting a reverse reading but you tell me. Its obvious something is working.

Still can't seem to wrap my head around this. I considered these motors to be super simple. I've worked on a bunch of these and hyundai and have never ran into this. Aye ! haha

I have a video below so we can all hear what the sound is. It is more then likely the chain but you take a stab at it.
thanks for the replies it is very comforting to know. Cheers !

 

[Jack Daniels]

The clacking sound seems to have the same frequency as the motor rpm.
I cant hear if it's crankshaft rpm or cam shaft rpm, but maybe you can?

you mentioned that some sections of the chain appeared slack.
If the source was one loose section of chain alone then it would not have the same frequency as the crankshaft or cam, the chain is probably about 6:1 vs the crankshaft rotation speed and that clacking sound is too hi frequency for that.
you'd have to count the teeth to calculate exactly.

have you blown thru the oil channels between the VVT solenid valve and the camshaft phase shifter/cam? Debris can enter the channel/s and even the phase shifter, often during work on the head.

 

[xroads]

Sounds nasty.

There should be an inline oil screen filter gauze somewhere. Maybe at the end of the oil control valve when removed. Sometimes has a separate screw in the vicinity.

The ocv normally operate at 12v. On the Toyota I applied this voltage direct and could hear it operate. Try it on your old spare.

Are you measuring the voltage across both wires of the solenoid ocv terminals?

I wouldn't worry about voltage vice-versa reading, but 7v seems odd. Maybe that's the average reading of it switching on and off. It shouldn't need to switch on off at high frequency, just simply be on or off. It could be that the two solenoids are 6v each and wired and switched in series?

The ocv directs oil at a sprung pin inside the cam which advances/retards opening/closing of valves.

I think you can try running it with ocv's disconnected, may throw up some error codes though.

Also take a look at your ECU connectors for any signs of water entry.

Sorry haven't worked on GDI, so am applying theory. Do lookup YouTube on vvt operation.

 

[bl665]

OK gang. Not sure if I mentioned this but my favorite machine shop I used for years closed due to freakin' covid. So finding one has been a nightmare. I was able to track down an old friend who took a look at the previous video posted. He told me more than likely it had to do with the bottom end. Now I went ahead and took it apart to find a bearing on #3 had scored the crankshaft. To the machine shop we went. lol

Few weeks have passed and I finally have started to re-assemble the motor. Here are some photos. I also attached a video of the chain slack I am getting. I've never seen this on a motor.... can anyone shed some light on if this is normal??

I mean does it kick in shape when the oil pressure is going ? Usually the tensioner holds the chain super tight.
Thanks in advance!!

 

[xroads]

Is it just a poor picture, or does the right hand ohc chain wheel look part worn on the top? The teeth don't appear to be as sharp.

I would think it would tighten up under hydraulic pressure as the vvt uses the diverted oil pressure to offset the timing.
Try moving one of the ohc chain wheels clock/anticlock when it slackens to see if it tightens up, without moving the cam shaft lobes.

Did you check the vvt filter?

Thanks for the pics and video, do keep us updated. I'm sure you won't let this gremlin go.

 

[bl665]

Thanks road X for the response. I have to mention though if you read the above post I said that I replaced most of the things you mention lol

The sprockets that you see on the motor in the video are the "new" ones i got with the timing kit I purchased. Seems everything checked out in that department. Cant be 100% but buying new sprockets at the dealer for 250 a piece seems exhausting after all of this. I'm pretty burnt on the whole idea of fixing this thing as it is. complete waste of my time and I still don't know If I have a car and can't find anyone that gives a shit to help so I'm winging it. Basically the story of my life. ughhh...

The OCV I've already bought new ones. Both sets have clean filter screens and test good with ohm and 12v applied.
I mean even in the manual it doesnt mentino anything about there being slack in the chain. haha Im so lost on this project I dont even know what to say. I've assembled everything correctly from what I know and should be installing motor soon. Ill let you guys know what happens. If anyone has any thoughts on the slack in the chain let me know. I've never seen it before in my life. who knows could have nothing to do with the noise.

 

[Riosteve]

correct me if i'm wrong, but in my experience if there is slack in the timing belt/chain between the camshafts then there will be variations in timing. The belt/chain should remain tight between the camshafts to maintain the correct angles of valve operation. There may be slack in the belt/chain elsewhere between the various pullies/tensioners but the 2 camshafts should be in perfect co-ordination.

 

[bl665]

correct me if i'm wrong, but in my experience if there is slack in the timing belt/chain between the camshafts then there will be variations in timing. The belt/chain should remain tight between the camshafts to maintain the correct angles of valve operation. There may be slack in the belt/chain elsewhere between the various pullies/tensioners but the 2 camshafts should be in perfect co-ordination.

Right. But this motor has a hydraulic tensioner and also cvvt sprockets which move depending on load. Also when I took the motor apart it was like this. Which made me think timing chain tensioner. The car also drove perfect before disassembly.
The disassembly was due to noise and the p0420 code.

The more I have dove into this. I can almost guarantee I had rod knock. Everything points to it and when I pulled the crank the 3rd cylinders rod bearings were toast and even scored the crank. Just wanted to post about it again to see if anyone has experienced this with there 1.6 motor. seems odd but I haven’t done a ton of these motors either.

 

[xroads]

Check this video out.
When he turns the crank it seems to have slack spots in the cycle, as the chain appears to bounce.

See if he can comment on your video?

It does seem weird. With no oil pressure the cam chain sprockets are normally in a locked position.

I don't think this is the source of the rattling noise, as even when they come into action via the ocv, they shouldnt make that noise. Also you replaced with new.

Assuming this is not the source of your problem. Your scoured bottom bearing may have excessive play in the shell bearings. How does that feel play wise?

I feel your agony.

 

[bl665]

Thanks for posting that. Ya i have seen all his videos. They are very informative but he never shows what the sound is before he goes on to explaining the problem. Which could be super frustrating for someone like me who is trying to diagnose haha!

I've found other videos but they are all in middle eastern language! Dammit Kia !!!

I have no choice and am out of time. Thanks for all your inputs. Cheers will report back when motor is going.... if it goes

 

[bl665]

Hey !!! Long late reply but it is a good one.

I went ahead and tore down the block to find a bad rod bearing in cylinder 3! It was a rod bearing. Had to remove block and send it to machine shop. Also deck the block for flatness. Luckily i was able to save the crankshaft, polish and balanced it. Now I've been driving it like normal. Car went from 98000 to 101130. First oil change and back to normal. Very happy with the results. I used hastings rings and bearings. Maybe I should change the oil more often lol

Let me know if you have any questions guys. I should have just rebuilt the whole motor lol AYE !!