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HELP!! cripton factor clutch fault

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    Posted: 30 Nov 2012 at 5:54pm
2006 kia sedona facelift model
2.9 T-Diesel
 
sinking biting point and no gears can be selected??!!
 
Genuine kia clutch master cylinder fitted 11.2012 , genuine kia clutch kit fitted with slave cylinder 03.2012 , new o-ring fitted to bleed nipple housing on clutch pipe work, slave union cleaned and checked for flow.
fault still remains.
bleed clutch up so nice hard pedal biting point is in middle, on road test biting point slowly sinks to bottom of pedal range, then gears can not be selected.

pump pedal twice and good pedal returns with biting point in the middle.
no leaks from any joints and no fluid loss from slave
when fault is present slave does not move on pressure plate.
 
Any help greatly appresiated
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MININUT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2012 at 6:34pm
fluid by-passing master cylinder seals (fit new seals or cylinder)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Herald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2012 at 8:10am
as mininut noted, clutch master cylinder faulty.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CMRacing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2012 at 9:34am
Thanks for the replies guys.
 
problem is a genuine Kia clutch master cylinder was fitted friday, exchanged under warranty.
 
fault is still the same, pedal is bled giving a good pressure behind pedal, on road test pedal progressivily gets worse resulting in no gears being able to be selected.
 
i have heard the slave cylinder aslo suffers from the seal fault, as the fluid is pushed past the seal giving the impression of air in the system, but does not leak so no loose of fluid is seen. but when the pedal is pumped there is enough pressure in the system to operate the slave? has anyone heard of faulty slave seals leaking internaly before ??


Edited by CMRacing - 03 Dec 2012 at 9:36am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MININUT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2012 at 10:03am
slave does not operate quite like the master, pressure in the fluid pipe should push slave push rod outwards, therefore fluid cannot return into delivery pipe, if fluid by-passes seals then obviously evidence of a leak would be present. 
I have not seen that you mention having to top up the brake reservoir? (also feeds the clutch master).
Check the fluid delivery pipe back from the slave cylinder, you will reach a cylinder type steel bottle, I have seen the pipes that enter this cylinder crack, about 2 inches before the union.
Failing all, there is an adjustment on the clutch pedal (you should not attempt adjustment unless you feel competent) you can only make small adjustments, only if you have too much free movement on the pedal, it's important to have a small amount of free travel before any pressure is felt.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CMRacing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2012 at 10:20am

fluid in reservoir does not go down.

the clutch system goes from working correctly, pedal biting half way.
then on a 10 minute road test, pedal will slowly start to bite lower and lower, until gears can not be selected.
 
once you pump clutch pedal two or three times clutch pedal returns to normal.
i have checked all pipe work from hard pipe leaving the master to hard pipe entering the flexi clutch line no signs of leaking or corroded pipe. also i have checked the clutch flexi line, this also has no signs of damage or wear.
the steel bottle you mention is the one with the bleed nipple on and has the flexi entering. i have removed this checked for flow though this and inspected for damage and replaced the o-ring sealing it to the slave union.
slave cylinder has no signs of fluid on the boot and gear box is dry, all connections have be checked for leaks. i have tried adjusting the clutch pedal with no joy of fixing the problem
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MININUT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2012 at 10:51am
the steel bottle I'm referring to is just above the rear end of the gearbox, no bleed nipple and no flexi pipe attached just steel pipes in and out (dont know what this bottle is called).  Anyhow, if there's no leak it's immaterial.If master cylinder and slave cylinder are working normally, then your answer is remove gearbox and check the activating fork, thrust bearing pressure plate and center plate.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CMRacing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2012 at 11:02am
this is the thing i have had the fault occur while vehicle has been on a ramp and when the fault is present clutch pedal does its normal travel to the floor, no fluid lose from anywhere but the slave doesnt not move at all as if the system has a major leak?? once the fault has occured and pedal has been pumped slave opperates normaly pushing the clutch realise springs. dual mass flywheel has no abnormal noises, vibrations or chattering.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Herald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2012 at 12:15pm
a theory but if the contector fork or bearing is badly draging then the when you take your foot off the pedal the slave cyclinder does not return so you create a vacume in the system so air passes the seals into the system just a little at a time until you have no clutch movement and pumping will be enough to comensate for this air in the system but only once and the presure in the system nomalizes. So check fork and bearing movement etc for stiffness.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CMRacing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2012 at 12:50pm
good thought, a theory on your theory if the seal was split it would not be able to self bleed unless losing fluid so the system would not return to a sealed fully working system it would progessively get worse and not self correct? when the system is working all movent of the pressure plate and clutch slave seem smooth, no sticking or grabbing ?
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